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In my experience I'm amazed that so many men have no idea how much HP their cars have..or even the number of cylinders! Even when brand new!? I feel embarrassed for them so I quickly change the subject.
Yikes, what did you ask the salesman when buying??

Guys around my office get more excited about some new PHEV or Hybrid appliance that rolls into the parking lot..
And I have a fire breathing Ferrari derived monster sitting right outside.

🙄
The older guys in my office are "car guys", the younger guys get excited for SUVs and "practicality".

I weep for our species.
 
Older guys wanna DRIVE! The younger generation want to be on their phones and let the car drive itself..or take public transit to be on their phones.

That's why we all rushed out to get our drivers license = Freedom!
This generation found their freedom through social media.
 
Older guys wanna DRIVE! The younger generation want to be on their phones and let the car drive itself..or take public transit to be on their phones.

That's why we all rushed out to get our drivers license = Freedom!
This generation found their freedom through social media.
Boy this is true! I got mine ON my 16th birthday. My nieces and nephews all waited until 17 or 18 or longer to actually get it. Each time I asked, they responded with "I'm scared to drive".....
 
The older guys in my office are "car guys", the younger guys get excited for SUVs and "practicality".

I weep for our species.
I'm in my 20s and see this too. My generation get excited about self-driving and tech. Even my friends who are more traditional car guys are more into AMG type of vehicle. They'd happily drive a 4000+ lb boat for acceleration + noise, handling be damned.

I think I'm the only dude I know who cares about steering feel/feedback, handling, and how much a car weighs. That's why I'm an Alfisti and will eventually be a Porsche 911 owner. The BMW M2 may snag me temporarily along the way.
 
I'm not sure if I care how relevant the Gulia is, I head to it ever morning with a smile on my face, my neighbours covet it while not wanting to shift from the Audi /BMW in black or grey, but the Gulia is better to drive and far better to look at. I hear lots of nonsense on how this BMW or Audi is faster /better maybe so but by God they don't look 10 % as good. So regardless I will drive my Gulia till the next salon from Alfa appears , I still have my 156 2.5 form 1999 still love it and it's got 250k plus on the clock
 
Manual Quad was sold in Europe until 2018, then it was discontinued.
You are correct. Manuals were released in Europe (like in this video i posted). Anyone know how many were sold?

In another one of Camissa's video from ~2017 (in which they compared the Giulia to BMW, AMG and Cadillac), they speculated that the cost of passing crash regulations for the N.American market might have been the reason why they didn't bring manuals here. (Something about the crast-test-dummy's foot being lopped off).

PS>Apologies, i was mistaken/inaccurate in my previous post
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
I reckon Giulia has a better chance of becoming a "future classic"
Interestingly, if Alfa leaves the car alone and doesn't refresh it, it likely could be a future classic.

It seems like cars that go thru a refresh tend to have some generations be less desirable (ie C3 and C4 vettes).



Another thought was, the GR Corolla is coming out later this year. 300hp, AWD, and a manual. It's positioned to be a very good and fun driver's car. And, it'll likely undercut the cost of a Giulia 2.0t.

Now, as a shopper, in 2022, where I want a fun, and involved driving experience, with around 300hp, four doors, and in the neighborhood of $40k...how does the Alfa stand out, beyond subjective items such as better looking? Add in Alfa's dealer network is laughable and it's a hard sell other than buying into a quirky brand.


Likewise, in the $79k arena... how does the QV stand out? Granted, attractive looking cars is the only reason Maserati sedans ever get sold :), but is that enough?

Mind you, I was an early adopter of the Giulia platform. Best looking sedan then, best looking sedan still... but how long does that become an old hat? Eventually, someone will make a better looking sedan (just won't be BMW), and there are better handling cars out now -- from both a subjective and objective standpoint.
 
I hope so. I'm on the fence about coming out of a Panamera into a Veloce. I drove a very solid G70 3.3T but the buying and service experience is extremely lacking for an outfit that claims to be a luxury brand. I wanted a Quad but I don't need it as a daily with a 997.2 C4S in the garage for fun times. Lucky to have 3 dealers within 20 miles of me so if I find the right build for the right price, I'm hoping the Veloce will be a solid daily until EVs become inevitable.
 
I hope so. I'm on the fence about coming out of a Panamera into a Veloce. I drove a very solid G70 3.3T but the buying and service experience is extremely lacking for an outfit that claims to be a luxury brand. I wanted a Quad but I don't need it as a daily with a 997.2 C4S in the garage for fun times. Lucky to have 3 dealers within 20 miles of me so if I find the right build for the right price, I'm hoping the Veloce will be a solid daily until EVs become inevitable.
"Well, we're waiting...."
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Yeah..but..a Corolla??

C'mon
Careful now, brand pretentiousness can be a sword that cuts both ways.

Older guys wanna DRIVE! The younger generation want to be on their phones and let the car drive itself..or take public transit to be on their phones.
Can't really be faulting a generation of people by saying they want a car that drive's itself, while your sports sedan is a torque converter automatic. The only transmission that is worse is a CVT.


Additionally, our generation is responsible for the mass amounts of people buying SUVs and trucks, which has knee-capped the sedans and coupes market.

We kept buying automatics when manuals were available, car makers made less manuals.
We kept buying useless SUVs (see: Stelvio), car makers made less sedans/coupes.

Thankfully, we have a couple of decent options to choose from, even if it's half of what we had 10-15 years ago.
 
It depends on what characteristics you evaluate when speaking of relevance.

Tech-wise it was irrelevant and dates even for 2016 and 2017 and no one will convince me otherwise. BMWs, for example, had LEDs, HUDs, 360 cameras, and other stuff in the F generation of their cars. Giulia still doesn't have it. Giulia's tech is the 00s, not late 10s, let alone 20s. Do you know that there are trims of Giulia with halogen lights? :)

There's a huge hairy BUT. Engineering wise in my opinion Giulia is a perfection in this segment, is relevant, and will be relevant for many years. I test drove BMW F80, F30, G30, Audi A4, A5, V6 Stinger, Standard Tesla 3 and nothing compares to Giulia, they're all good cars, some very good, but it doesn't amaze you, doesn't feel special, you don't question yourself how did they do that? And if you think about it, the progress in engineering is not that rapid, I can see many car brands just doing minor upgrades to their engines, transmissions, and suspension but overall it's the same old stuff used in the 00s or even 90s. And then they stuff cheap 90$ monitors and interior lights from NFS Underground and it attracts the general public. The interior tech impresses you for a day or a week and then you're stuck with a car driving like crap. But here's a trick - a non-car person would not notice the majority of the driving issues and won't care.

Tech and brochures with blingy bullet points buy cars, and engineering like in Giulia makes you keep the car, makes you a fan or at least a brand supporter. Same with BMWs, people buy them because of the brand or just overall brand perception of luxury and sportiness, but then buy BMWs again because for example there's no better drivetrain than the B57 or B58, because of engineering, not because of the 360 camera. The majority of people whom I know and own a BMW, they're BMW fanboys. Same with Alfas.

The difference of Giulia though is that on paper it doesn't impress you with gazillion bullet points describing all the features like laser lights, HUDs, automatic parking, electric trunk lids, and so on.
Only car enthusiasts would care about bullet points listing LDS, aluminum paddle shifters, Brembo brakes as standard, 50-50 weight, carbon driveshaft, double wishbone, 5 link suspension, and so on. The general public doesn't even know what it is for. But the BMW will offer almost the same, but much more flexibility in specs + a lot of blingy tech stuff for everyday use. A non-car person can go to the BMW dealership and spec a 320D wagon with laser lights, HUD, and other stuff and car enthusiasts can spec an M340i with manual seats and no HUD if they want to keep the price lower. Or an M340i/M340D wagon!

And I don't know about the US, but here in Europe average NET salary in the mid-class could be say, 2-3-4-5 thousand euros monthly. Veloce (Ti Sport) costs around 60k, Veloce Ti (Ti Sport with carbon and perf. pack. or Estrema nowadays) would cost closer to 70k euros. Now compare it to the average salary. Then think of 2euros for 1 liter 98 gasoline prices = 7.5 euros or 8.15 USD for a gallon. I spend 300 euros on petrol alone per month. Where I am leading to?

You'd be paying 700 euros for leasing and 300 for petrol + maintenance and taxes in some countries. This is a very pricy car to own in Europe. 1/4 of 1/3 of your income. It's a privilege, not just some car.
For that type of spending, you have to either be a die-hard car enthusiast and you just don't care, or it should be doing EVERYTHING as a car.
That's why if a person over here can afford a 60-70k car, they'd go for something that offers both tech and engineering and probably cargo space and is fairly fuel-efficient. It should tick as many boxes as possible. And that makes Giulia a very niche car a prior. You will go and rather buy a well-specced Audi Q5, Macan 2.0, X3, XC60, or some station wagon/liftback or two Qashqais if you're a family man and need 2 cars for 70k :)

And you won't see a lot of Audi A4, A5, BMW 3, C classes in Europe actually, because they don't make a lot of sense anymore for the average person. They're already quite pricy, but the use case is narrow. If you can afford just 1 car, it's not very practical. Want comfort? Go for BMW 5 or A6 already. Want utility? Go for an SUV. Compact premium sedans are a niche thing on their own already, let alone Giulia.

Stelvio failed because it doesn't make sense, apologies to everyone. It tries to be sporty, compared to other SUVs it is, but in general, it's not. It's a huge compromise, but then it also loses in other departments that are important to the general public. Keep the brilliant looks of Stelvio, make it slightly less sporty and more comfortable ride, improve the interior just a bit, add some fancy tech options and then it'll become a well-sold SUV.

TL/DR
I think you can't and couldn't make anything to make Giulia a sales hit, maybe just boost sales a tad.
In California 5000 Euros/month qualifies you for financial assistance. In the USA 2000 Euros/month is below the poverty line. I did not know that things were so dire in Europe.
OTOH, Alfa (and BMW and Audi) are not targeting financially "average" people. The cost of an Alfa in the USA is also quite a bit lower, largely due to lower taxes and both vehicle sales and gasoline, with the end result being that most Alfa buyers are paying 10% or less of their income to own and operate one.

Anyway, has any of the competition bettered Alfa's 280HP 2.0T in this price range? The QV is lagging (there are several 600HP engines amongst the competition now) but also likely to be regulated out of existence soon due to high CO2 emissions.
HUD may or may not be a good thing--I have not driven a car with one.
360 degree camera looks fancy, but is it accurate enough to trust? How often do you have to clean those cameras? I have enough trouble with the one back up camera on my Giulia.

Digital dashboard? Gag me with a spoon.

LED headlights? Only if they out perform the HID for brightness, glare and freezing. That seems unlikely to happen.

Self driving? Maybe when I buy a BEV that has a crappy driving experience; or when I am too old to drive well.

Alfa needs to have some advertising. Alfa needs to fix it's perception of having reliability issues that are worse than the competition. Alfa needs to fix it's perception of costing more than the competition. I have lost count of how many times people have asked me if my car cost $x, where X is a large number (anywhere from $70k to $150k)--my car MSRP was $56k.

IMO, Alfa needs a "parts bin" bespoke program, such as those that the competition (BMW) have abandoned (?). That is the kind of thing that would attract the kind of people who want and can afford a car like this.

Regarding updates: In 1961 Jag announced the E-type. A well balanced sports car that is still relevant. They did an update in 1965 with an improved engine and transmission and more comfortable seats--all good. Then came 1967 and things rapidly went down hill--messed up styling, degraded engine performance (smog compliance). Finally 1971 came along and they stretched the chassis, installed that too heavy for the car V12 together with power steering and totally ruined the concept. Ask Joe-average though and if you say Jag XKE (another USA marketing mess) they immediately ask "with the V12?". They don't care that the power to weight ratio of the V12 was not better than with the original 3.8L I6*, they don't care that the driving dynamics are completely messed up by the chassis length increase, power steering and front heavy weight balance, all they care about is that heavily advertised V12. The E-type was discontinued in 1975 because it could not meet crash test requirements. Let's hope that Giulia type 952 makes a more dignified progression.

* OK, it is relatively easy to tune the V12 for a lot more power, while the I6 is difficult to tune.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Anyway, has any of the competition bettered Alfa's 280HP 2.0T in this price range?
a few, just not in the same "luxury sedan" segment. Golf R, Focus RS, Civic Type R, etc, etc.

HUD may or may not be a good thing--I have not driven a car with one.
the SO just picked up a Mazda3 with it. It's kinda gimmicky, you really don't notice it and almost forget it's there.

360 degree camera looks fancy, but is it accurate enough to trust? How often do you have to clean those cameras? I have enough trouble with the one back up camera on my Giulia.
360 cams are incredibly helpful. Want to make sure you're parked within the lines, check the cam.
Want to pull into the garage making sure you don't hit anything, check the cam.
See if someone is riding your butt a little too close, check the cam.

You do have to keep your car clean, but... if you like your car, shouldn't that already be part of the weekly/monthly maintenance?

Digital dashboard? Gag me with a spoon.
LED headlights? Only if they out perform the HID for brightness, glare and freezing. That seems unlikely to happen.
I'm not a fan of full digital dashboards. I think Ferrari has a nice mixture of analog and digital dash, which would be the best option.
LED headlamps are very nice though...


I guess we'll see how the next gen EV Giulia will be...hopefully it'll be as good as a Tesla 3 in terms of performance and range, but keep the Giulia's driving character. Right now, there doesn't seem to be a "fun" EV, besides maybe a Mini ?
 
In California 5000 Euros/month qualifies you for financial assistance. In the USA 2000 Euros/month is below the poverty line. I did not know that things were so dire in Europe.
OTOH, Alfa (and BMW and Audi) are not targeting financially "average" people. The cost of an Alfa in the USA is also quite a bit lower, largely due to lower taxes and both vehicle sales and gasoline, with the end result being that most Alfa buyers are paying 10% or less of their income to own and operate one.

Anyway, has any of the competition bettered Alfa's 280HP 2.0T in this price range? The QV is lagging (there are several 600HP engines amongst the competition now) but also likely to be regulated out of existence soon due to high CO2 emissions.
HUD may or may not be a good thing--I have not driven a car with one.
360 degree camera looks fancy, but is it accurate enough to trust? How often do you have to clean those cameras? I have enough trouble with the one back up camera on my Giulia.

Digital dashboard? Gag me with a spoon.

LED headlights? Only if they out perform the HID for brightness, glare and freezing. That seems unlikely to happen.

Self driving? Maybe when I buy a BEV that has a crappy driving experience; or when I am too old to drive well.

Alfa needs to have some advertising. Alfa needs to fix it's perception of having reliability issues that are worse than the competition. Alfa needs to fix it's perception of costing more than the competition. I have lost count of how many times people have asked me if my car cost $x, where X is a large number (anywhere from $70k to $150k)--my car MSRP was $56k.

IMO, Alfa needs a "parts bin" bespoke program, such as those that the competition (BMW) have abandoned (?). That is the kind of thing that would attract the kind of people who want and can afford a car like this.

Regarding updates: In 1961 Jag announced the E-type. A well balanced sports car that is still relevant. They did an update in 1965 with an improved engine and transmission and more comfortable seats--all good. Then came 1967 and things rapidly went down hill--messed up styling, degraded engine performance (smog compliance). Finally 1971 came along and they stretched the chassis, installed that too heavy for the car V12 together with power steering and totally ruined the concept. Ask Joe-average though and if you say Jag XKE (another USA marketing mess) they immediately ask "with the V12?". They don't care that the power to weight ratio of the V12 was not better than with the original 3.8L I6*, they don't care that the driving dynamics are completely messed up by the chassis length increase, power steering and front heavy weight balance, all they care about is that heavily advertised V12. The E-type was discontinued in 1975 because it could not meet crash test requirements. Let's hope that Giulia type 952 makes a more dignified progression.

* OK, it is relatively easy to tune the V12 for a lot more power, while the I6 is difficult to tune.
Regarding the HUD mentioned above:
I remember thinking a HUD would be a great thing if I ever got on a track. I did the BMW 2 day M school in 2018. 2 full days of going all out with hot laps, etc. Never once looked at the HUD or the speedometer. Had my lap times but never knew how fast I was going as my eyes were out the windshield and looking at the turn in points and apexes as far ahead as possible. Realizing this helped seal the deal for me on the Giulia QV. I wanted simplicity. I want to plug in my phone to charge (and maybe....maybe listen to some music), put my hands on the wheel and listen to the engine. I keep my peripheral vision on the tachometer in tight turns on the track now. No need for a HUD. If I'm looking at a HUD, I'm going to slow. I need to pick up the speed a little at that point.
 
Alfa Romeo Giulia will be a cult classic in the future, due to having a very analog driving experience (unheard of in 2022) and being very accessible and enjoyable to drive, as well as having the best styling on the market for both the 2.0L and QV (actually the 2.0L is arguably the cleaner design of the two, but don't tell Imparato I said that).

Is it "relevant"? That really depends on what you mean by "relevance". Some cars remain relevant by continually introducing new software, new features, etc. Hyundai, Benz and Audi are a good example of this, the latest Sonata looks very new and high-tech, but the actual driving experience is quite similar to the Sonata from a decade ago, minus some improvement in NVH. Other car brands remain "relevant" by being the safest pick for non-enthusiasts due to high emphasis on reliability at the expense of driving experience and tech, for instance Honda / Toyota.

For Alfa, and just a couple of other brands (Porsche is another example, and perhaps Mini), "relevance" is determined by one thing: driving dynamics. How does the powertrain perform by both the numbers and by engine response, how does the car handle, how is the suspension set up, how agile and engaging is the transmission? Does the car "feel" special to drive on a backroad or a track? In that case, I would make the argument that Alfa is competitive vs. its peers, but it needs to keep moving, and keep improving on driving dynamics. Not because the Giulia of today is poor, but because that is what it means to stay "relevant"; to continually improve on what your brand excels at. At this point, the Giulia is 7 years into its model life. We only know of a visual refresh coming within the next year or two, but that is arguably not necessary. What Alfa needs to do more than anything, is to make improvements to the car's driving experience - either by transmission, engine, or any number of other improvements, that speak to the enthusiast, rather than visual updates or tech upgrades that are more befitting an Audi than an Alfa.
 
Relevant? Irrelevant? Who cares! I haven't had this much fun in a car in a long time! I've been a long time BMW fan for decades now, just due to their driving dynamics and overall fun factor with 4 doors, but they've all gotten chunky and soft nowadays. Sales just prove most Americans don't like "driving" their cars. This car was made for people that enjoy driving first, with everything else secondary. :love:

I for one, am grateful something like this made it stateside before the inevitable transition to electrics. Drive this thing! Great moments like this don't last forever! I thought cars like this were dead and gone forever! Find a big parking lot, drive 100 miles out of the city and carve up some winding country roads, turn the radio down and stomp the pedal until your hair stands up! Eat bologne sandwiches for a week and burn a whole tank of 93 driving everywhere and nowhere! It's better than therapy. They even call the drivers seat a "cockpit" how badass is that ... Captain? ;)
 
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