[toby@eurocompulsion]

Thanks, Chris.

Those I've seen, though, and unless I'm reading them wrong, neither expresses gains from V2 in terms of horsepower.

The first graph shows intake pressure drop over "horsepower of air," which I don't understand the meaning of. Can you explain that a bit, and whether it can be translated into regular Hp gains? I'm happy to take intake pressure drop as a manifest gain, but I really don't know what lower intake pressure means in common terms.

The second chart shows V2 in combo with exhaust and exhaust+tune compared to stock, but it's not possible to determine from those three options what amount the ~31hp gain and ~15lb-ft tq gains can be realized by the V2 alone, without the exhaust system.

Any clarification is appreciated!

We did not have the dyno fully installed at the time the V2 intake was released, and by the time it was our test car already had an exhaust installed from previous testing. But, I do have a chart somewhere from just the intake that was tested later on. I thought I had posted this to our technical page, but I guess I did not (I will put it up there today).

As Nik said, horsepower of air refers to the engine's volumetric efficiency, typically expressed in kg/hr of mass air flow or percentage. You can test this in a number of different conversions, but unless you can look inside the ECU file (which most of you cannot) and cross reference mass air flow to what is tested on the car, those kg/hr numbers are meaningless to most. Kg/hr of mass air flow is converted with other information from testing to fuel flow, and from fuel flow you can determine the amount of horsepower per measurement of air (so how many kg/hr of air mass to achieve (X) amount of HP). That's a rough summary.

The chart reflects the tested pressure drop of each intake piece under the demanded mass air flow from the engine (which is converted to the equivalent HP of that air mass). Not easily equated to a specific HP gain, but more importantly the design is doing it's job, and you can see this on the dyno chart as well.

 

[Superod]

We did not have the dyno fully installed at the time the V2 intake was released, and by the time it was our test car already had an exhaust installed from previous testing. But, I do have a chart somewhere from just the intake that was tested later on. I thought I had posted this to our technical page, but I guess I did not (I will put it up there today).

Is it correct that on this car we will see more improvement from the intake than an aftermarket exhaust?

 

[chaadster]

The exhaust adds maybe 5hp, so of the 31hp gain, ~26hp is from the intake. I ran the exhaust first for a while but when I added the V2 the low end torque increase was definitely noticeable.

Thanks for the pressure drop explanation, Nik.

Regarding the hp gain theory you outlined there, is that how it works, in a linear accumulation like that? I mean, say if testing an exhaust on an otherwise unmodded Giulia netted a 5hp gain, and testing both the exhaust and an intake on an otherwise unmodded car netted 31hp gain, does it mean that the intake alone would add 26hp? Or conversely, that individual gains of 5hp and 26hp, when both mods are added together, necessarily sums up to a 31hp gain?

I thought mods could work together to be more than the sum of their individual performance, especially an exhaust, which if properly suited to the engine, could help scavenge exhaust gas and pull in the fresh intake charge, enhancing the impact of an intake system.

 

[chaadster]

But, I do have a chart somewhere from just the intake that was tested later on. I thought I had posted this to our technical page, but I guess I did not (I will put it up there today).

Thanks for the insights, Toby, and I do look forward to seeing the hp/tq numbers for the V2 intake!

 

[Nik]

Thanks for the pressure drop explanation, Nik.

Regarding the hp gain theory you outlined there, is that how it works, in a linear accumulation like that? I mean, say if testing an exhaust on an otherwise unmodded Giulia netted a 5hp gain, and testing both the exhaust and an intake on an otherwise unmodded car netted 31hp gain, does it mean that the intake alone would add 26hp? Or conversely, that individual gains of 5hp and 26hp, when both mods are added together, necessarily sums up to a 31hp gain?

I thought mods could work together to be more than the sum of their individual performance, especially an exhaust, which if properly suited to the engine, could help scavenge exhaust gas and pull in the fresh intake charge, enhancing the impact of an intake system.

It is definitely not linear. You are correct that when combined, mods can add up to more than their individual gains, or conversely subtract if the mods aren't suited to work well together. With the intake/exhaust combo, I don't expect a whopping addition, maybe the V2 is around 21-24hp added, combined with the exhaust you total to 31hp. I'll wait until Toby uploads their numbers before I continue to randomly speculate.

 

[chaadster]

It is definitely not linear. You are correct that when combined, mods can add up to more than their individual gains, or conversely subtract if the mods aren't suited to work well together. With the intake/exhaust combo, I don't expect a whopping addition, maybe the V2 is around 21-24hp added, combined with the exhaust you total to 31hp. I'll wait until Toby uploads their numbers before I continue to randomly speculate.

There’s little doubt that Eurocompulsion do thoughtful, tested design, so probably more important than demonstrated Hp/Tq gains is showing that, as Toby said, the piece “is doing its job.” So long as we know we’re getting that, whatever car we bolt onto is going to do with it the best it can depending on whether it’s stock or however it’s modded.

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

Okay, I added this to our tech info:
https://shopeurocompulsion.net/blog...les/eurocompulsion-v1-v2-air-induction-systems-tech-info-alfa-romeo-giulia-2-0l

And product pages for the intake.

I looked for quite some time, and could not find anything for the V1 intake on the dyno computer (at least not that I labeled or noted).

EDIT: Also, this was back in February, so it was quite cool at the time.

 

[AbarthFox]

So my car only makes 239HP / 290TQ with the V2 intake? no wonder I lost so badly last night to that my friends 345/320 manual car. :surprise:
I really need to get the P1 tune. >

I honestly thought our cars made a little more power from the factory.

 

[chaadster]

So my car only makes 239HP / 290TQ with the V2 intake?

I honestly thought our cars made a little more power from the factory.

I know...that's what I've been saying about these cars; they drive really sweet, but they are not impressively powerful to me.

Before I got the MaxPower tune, I was seriously in doubt about pulling off what should have been totally do-able passes. Now I'm much more confident that when I nail it, it's gonna go good.

Now the Quad is a different story...! That thing is a beast, a total killer. It's a good thing I don't have one, because I'd just be drivin' around, ****tin' on fools all the time.

 

[Eagle7]

So my car only makes 239HP / 290TQ with the V2 intake? no wonder I lost so badly last night to that my friends 345/320 manual car. :surprise:
I really need to get the P1 tune. >

I honestly thought our cars made a little more power from the factory.

Those figures are WHEEL numbers; that's the power that actually makes it to the rear wheels. Alfa states that the stock engine puts out 280 hp (engine crank hp), so if only 231 is making it to the rear wheels, that means 49 hp is being absorbed by the drivetrain before it gets to the rear wheels. That works out to a drivetrain loss of 17.5% which is actually rather high. Not sure why it's so high; and that's even with a carbon fiber driveshaft which usually reduces loss. Typically the loss is between 12-15%.

At any rate, with Eurocompulsion's V2 intake the power goes from 231 whp, to 239 whp, and from 275 wtq, to 290 wtq (wtq = wheel torque). Factoring in the drivetrain loss, that would translate to 289.7 hp and 351.5 lbs of torque at the engine crank, which is the basis the factory uses for it's claims. That means with nothing but their V2 intake, you gain 9 hp, and 15 lbs of torque which is good for just an intake. It's the torque you feel the most, but the improvement in engine breathing really shows in how it smooths out the performance of the engine. When you add their tune, that's when you feel the big gains.

 

[jnsd]

Does anyone know if the V2 would effect the Warranty on the vehicle? [emoji848]

Sounds like a simple and effective mod. Just unsure if head office would consider it something that would void a warranty if the car had a problem. Although I guess you could always put the stock back on before taking to the dealer....

 

[lockem]

Those figures are WHEEL numbers; that's the power that actually makes it to the rear wheels. Alfa states that the stock engine puts out 280 hp (engine crank hp), so if only 231 is making it to the rear wheels, that means 49 hp is being absorbed by the drivetrain before it gets to the rear wheels. That works out to a drivetrain loss of 17.5% which is actually rather high. Not sure why it's so high; and that's even with a carbon fiber driveshaft which usually reduces loss. Typically the loss is between 12-15%.

At any rate, with Eurocompulsion's V2 intake the power goes from 231 whp, to 239 whp, and from 275 wtq, to 290 wtq (wtq = wheel torque). Factoring in the drivetrain loss, that would translate to 289.7 hp and 351.5 lbs of torque at the engine crank, which is the basis the factory uses for it's claims. That means with nothing but their V2 intake, you gain 9 hp, and 15 lbs of torque which is good for just an intake. It's the torque you feel the most, but the improvement in engine breathing really shows in how it smooths out the performance of the engine. When you add their tune, that's when you feel the big gains.

There is a bunch of guess work involved in all of the numbers other than the WHP value. Even the WHP number is distorted by the increased friction of the tires on rollers versus a flat road.

Those wheel torque numbers must be referred to the engine crank even though that is not stated (i.e. divided by the gearing ratio), since the actual torque on the wheels should be significantly higher than the torque at the engine crank even in 8th gear. Of course units are also needed such as ft-lbs or n-m (pounds==lbs are not a unit for representing torque).

The power numbers are also adjusted for current air conditions, such as temperature and pressure. These adjustments are also estimates, adding to the uncertainty of the absolute accuracy of the numbers.

The main utility of dyno numbers is to see how much a mod changes the numbers, not to compare absolute values to other vehicles that may have been measured under different conditions.

 

[lockem]

I'm not sure there is actually a "great debate" relative to intake upgrades. More air MASS into the engine = more power as long as the air is not so hot after it passes through the intercooler that it causes pinging.

One thing to have a look at is the diminutive size of the intake plumbing between the turbo and the manifold (over the top of the engine). That seems unlikely to be a good thing.

 

[Eagle7]

The crank figures are based on controlled conditions in a room specifically built for measuring what an engine produces. Those you can count on. When it says wheel numbers, those are what is being measured at the wheels on a dyno. Rear wheel figures are subject to the dyno, the operator, and the conditions at the moment, which is why Toby mentioned it was taken in February when the air temp was cooler. They can vary but as you pointed out, the real value is being able to compare a before and after reading after you've made a mod of some kind. Unless you know the drivetrain loss and other factors with each car, the power numbers don't necessarily compare directly from car to car.

Drivetrain loss involves many things including the weight of the flywheel, clutch, the efficiency of the trans, the driveshaft type and whether it's 1 piece or 2 piece, the type and efficiency of the differential, the weight of the rear wheels and rear brakes, and finally the viscosity of the oils in the trans and diff. Unless you change the mechanical components which gets expensive fast, the easiest way to reduce some of that loss is better gear fluids. I put Torco gear oils in my Camaro and I could immediately feel the difference just in how much easier the car coasted when it began to roll. The difference at the dyno was anywhere from 3-5% depending on the run. I'd have to do some research into what Alfa is using in the trans and diff, but there are probably some better (and more expensive) fluids that can help reduce friction loss. They help in several ways though. In addition to allowing more power to make it to the rear wheels, the car rolls easier which helps fuel mileage. The reduction in gear noise also made the car quieter.

Efficiency builds are very interesting to do, and quite rewarding if done right.

 

[Eagle7]

After doing some research, it appears that Torco has gear fluids that would work with the trans and differentials. The Alfa owner's manual for the non-QV shows the following:

The auto trans is going to need 10 quarts regardless if you have RWD or AWD. The manual does not list a particular specification, other than Synthetic ATF.

The rear diff depending on which one you have, will take 1 quart for non-LSD diffs, and .9 or 1.1 quarts if you do have the LSD. I'm not sure which ones we have, as it does not say on my window sticker which one is included, it just says "mechanical limited slip". The fluid type for both non and LSD diffs does have a spec, which is FPW9.55550-DA9. All the rear diffs use the same spec.

For those who have the Q4 AWD system, I'm pretty sure we have the FAD transfer case which takes .5 quarts, but I'm not sure if the other system listed which just says TRANSFER CASE is a separate part of the system or not. If so, it takes .7 quarts. Each of those two types of transfer case have a separate spec oil. Since the AWD doesn't kick in unless circumstances require it, I don't know that there would be much (if any) benefit to upgrading those oils. The system doesn't really get used that much, unless you live in an area that has slippery road conditions a lot.

If MacGeek reads this, maybe he has more information on how to tell which type you have if you have an AWD model.

I'm thinking for fluid upgrades, the trans and main rear diff are the only ones that would be worthwhile. The ZF trans is used in a lot of cars, and I know Torco has a synthetic ATF fluid that works for ZF transmissions in many manufacturer cars so that shouldn't be a problem. I'll continue to do more research into the differential fluid spec.

 

[Superod]

Does anyone know if the V2 would effect the Warranty on the vehicle? [emoji848]

Sounds like a simple and effective mod. Just unsure if head office would consider it something that would void a warranty if the car had a problem. Although I guess you could always put the stock back on before taking to the dealer....

You should ask your service advisor this question. Dealerships I've spoken to have no problem with bolt-ons like this or an exhaust. The tuning is another story, if you run into a problem.

 

[Superod]

We've got our new MAXFlow Carbon Fiber Intake system dropping soon. Currently open for discounted pre-orders.

Your intake is $700.... discounted... for an airbox and a filter. Do you have dynos? Or any idea what hp this box and filter produce?

 

[MADNESS Autoworks]

Your intake is $700.... discounted... for an airbox and a filter. Do you have dynos? Or any idea what hp this box and filter produce?

For a sealed genuine carbon fiber intake that is designed to take advantage of the factory mounts and bumper scoops. It also comes with a custom BMC double cone filter to give your turbo the cleanest, coldest, and smoothest air possible.

There is also an optional silicone hose to replace the factory post MAF pipe. This also keeps all of the factory sensors in the factory locations.

We've had the prototype installed in our Giulia for a couple of months now without any issues.

We have not taken the Giulia to a dyno since installing the MAXFlow. It is on our to-do list but we have a number of other projects we are focusing on right now such as our MAXPower for the Quadrifoglio and aggressive springs for the Stelvio.

 

[lockem]

After doing some research, it appears that Torco has gear fluids that would work with the trans and differentials. The Alfa owner's manual for the non-QV shows the following:

View attachment 76342
View attachment 76344

The auto trans is going to need 10 quarts regardless if you have RWD or AWD. The manual does not list a particular specification, other than Synthetic ATF.

The rear diff depending on which one you have, will take 1 quart for non-LSD diffs, and .9 or 1.1 quarts if you do have the LSD. I'm not sure which ones we have, as it does not say on my window sticker which one is included, it just says "mechanical limited slip". The fluid type for both non and LSD diffs does have a spec, which is FPW9.55550-DA9. All the rear diffs use the same spec.

For those who have the Q4 AWD system, I'm pretty sure we have the FAD transfer case which takes .5 quarts, but I'm not sure if the other system listed which just says TRANSFER CASE is a separate part of the system or not. If so, it takes .7 quarts. Each of those two types of transfer case have a separate spec oil. Since the AWD doesn't kick in unless circumstances require it, I don't know that there would be much (if any) benefit to upgrading those oils. The system doesn't really get used that much, unless you live in an area that has slippery road conditions a lot.

If MacGeek reads this, maybe he has more information on how to tell which type you have if you have an AWD model.

I'm thinking for fluid upgrades, the trans and main rear diff are the only ones that would be worthwhile. The ZF trans is used in a lot of cars, and I know Torco has a synthetic ATF fluid that works for ZF transmissions in many manufacturer cars so that shouldn't be a problem. I'll continue to do more research into the differential fluid spec.

Here is some more information on the Q4 gear boxes, since I have Q4. This might be useful for your research.

The transfer and front differential are made by Magna/Puch (aren't these the guys that made my Allstate "Twingle" 250cc motorcycle?).

Magna notes that they offer the transfer with electrically operated clutch, differential (they also make torque vectoring differentials) and axle disconnects (FAD). The FAD made by Magna is an electrically operated clutch (I think a "dog" type clutch rather than the friction clutch found in the transfer) that goes inline with the front half shaft(s). The differential can be equipped with one or two FAD. Magna does not sell anything directly and does not list any component specifications on their website. There is some chance that they might answer lubricant questions.

The service manual has drawing of the front differential with no FAD visible on either side of the differential, nor any text mentioning such devices. The purpose of an FAD is to reduce the drive line drag when the front wheels are not being driven, but this is done at the cost of weight, space, complexity and cost. Without an FAD the front differential and front drive shaft will be turning all of the time.

The front axle is an interesting concoction: the front differential is bolted to the right side of the engine. The left half shaft is 2 piece, with a section that runs through the engine oil pan with a bearing that bolts to the left side of the oil pan, then a second section from the oil pan to the left wheel. The right side half shaft is "normal". Note that it appears that in order to remove the engine from a Q4 you need to pull the half shafts and in order to pull the half shafts you need to dismantle the front suspension. Don't blow up the engine in your Q4.

If the rear axle has LSD, you need LSD compatible oil in it. Otherwise the clutches may slip and render the LSD functionality broken. Torco sells two different additives for this purpose; it is not obvious which additive might be appropriate. In my experience gear oil viscosity is not as critical as transmission or engine oil viscosity due to the lack of an oil pump and filter. I believe the formula is essentially lower viscosity = less drag but increased wear. Also, higher viscosity deals with high temperatures such as might be encountered on the track better; I notice that Torco sells extended viscosity gear oils, such as 80W-140. I also notice that Torco's 75W-90 gear oil has a pour point of about -20C, making me wonder if a gear oil change would be a good idea for winter driving in cold country.

The manual says if you have the 280HP engine you get a 3.15 ratio rear differential and if you have the 200HP engine you get a 3.27 ratio rear differential. Thus, upgrading your super engine to veloce specs does not get you a veloce spec car. The manual does not list the front differential ratio, nor the transfer ratio.

 

[jnsd]

Great info!


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