Any ideas regarding if the engine is revved to 5000 RPM (no load) and held there if the turbo cuts in at all? I suspect not, but do not know.

At higher engine RPMs the turbo can spool up faster, that is a certainty for any turbocharged engine.

EC did estimate that that the V2 intake should yield about +15HP. Although not huge, it is also not trivial. What they didn't estimate is how much more power that it should yield at 2000 RPM, if any.

One big plus I see with the V2 intake is that it makes a little noise. Not so much as to disturb the ride, but enough that I can hear what the engine is doing at least when I "have my foot in it".

One intake feature that I haven't heard discussed so far is ram-air. Although normally associated with NA engines, I believe that ram-air (ducting the engine air intake to a high pressure area, usually near the front of the car) can improve fuel economy, reduce strain on the turbocharger and reduce engine temperatures with a turbo charged engine. It can be critical for rear/mid engined vehicles.

 

EC did estimate that that the V2 intake should yield about +15HP. Although not huge, it is also not trivial.

If that's true, they estimated high, because their testing showed a gain of only 8.1hp.

Torque tested up, at 14.8lb-ft; is that what you mean?

 

When I installed my V2 I trimmed the plastic duct that draws the cool air from the front grill. They said to remove it but the air wont go directly to the filter. I do notice when the temps go down in the night car pulls very strong to redline. If we can get a upgrade to our intercooler that would also help drastically. I believe EC has something in the works. Just have to be patient till more parts become available.

 

Intakes don't do much unless you pair them with a high test tune, like Stage 2-3 level.


Only thing that changes is the noise you hear from the turbo spooling.


This is a pretty open secret on car forums.

 

Has anyone here purchased the Maddness cold air box?

 

I can't answer for everyone, but I am curious about it - a V1 plus this Madness cold air box as an intake system tops the material science pub factor. Eric from Madness told me via email that he would have them in "active inventory" this week. Open air filters raise some eyebrows with some Australian police apparently, as do oil-treated filters, but the latter are harder to spot if inside a box. The V1 is then a choice of red or black? Got a favourite colour?

 

With Tuning we can take further advantage of volumetric efficiency tables, the car on its own will not take full advantage of certain components. Some advantage but not all.

We are also quoting 8+whp not 8hp. One number is crank number and one is to the wheels. please keep that in mind. 8+whp is around 10+hp.

 

I was thinking exactly the same thing Chaadster "Why do the police have something to say about intakes and filter mediums?", I was chuckling a bit when I read that. I installed the V2 intake about 1,500 miles ago.... So far a nice sound, slightly more power and the best part.... NO TICKETS :grin2:

 

Police has a lot to say about a lot of things in many countries, many US members dont know how nice we have it here....in many parts of so called free world cop can simply confiscate your motorcycle just because it does not have a certain cert stamping on exhaust....US crowd would find cops in many places even in free world as outright stormtroopers with nazi powers lol

 

To your point, they have a lot to say about car mods in Oz!

https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications

It looks like filter medium is not scrutinized, though.

 

Okay, *maybe* intake based on noise, but filter medium?? Why would the cops be involved with that?

EDIT: Doh! https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/drivin...d-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/aftermarket-components

 

To make it worse, the different states in Australia have different rules, so you can be legal where your car is registered, but drive into another and hypothetically get a defect notice. In a basically standard looking Alfa you are unlikely to get your car inspected if you were pulled over for speeding and are polite etc.

 

The USA has similar laws, but very little field enforcement and in some cases (apparently Texas) no enforcement at all. Part of this lack of enforcement is due to the constitutional right to be protected from unwarranted search and seizure while another substantial part of it is that the field officers are not trained or equipped to be able to determine if a vehicle is in compliance.

 

I've been watching this as I intend to purchase in intake at some point and have drawn the following conclusions.

It seems that there are three main sources, Eurocompulsion, Madness and AFE.

Eurocompulsion seems to be the most popular, perhaps by virtue of being the first to market. By all accounts, the intake works very well, if not a bit noisy for some driver's taste. Sound is of the beholder. Price is reasonable and the red one looks super cool. EC claims about +8hp at the wheel.

Madness is in the process of making a high flow carbon airbox replacement with a BMC conical filter. Shipping dates seem to be in flux. The unit is gorgeous in clear coat carbon fiber, and the BMC filter is understood to be excellent. However, the price is very high ($700 if you pre-order). I have been unable to find any dyno results on the Madness unit, and noise is TBD.

AFE is selling a high flow roto molded (think Yeti cooler under your hood) airbox replacement with a choice of two filter elements...one dry and one oiled. The oiled has a marginally higher airflow. AFE has an excellent reputation, so I'm sure that this unit performs as advertised. They provide dyno results that show +10hp at the crank. Expect modest noise. The unit is reasonably priced, but is butt-ugly. Reference Yeti cooler comment above.

Of the three choices, two provide some data. This data tells me that there is no substantive performance difference between the open filter (EC) and closed unit (AFE). It's interesting that AFE's charts show about a -11.5 degree F lower ambient air temperature when testing with their intake (EC results don't mention temperature). Further, it seems that the actual key metric here is airflow. Any of these units are a huge improvement over the stock setup.

My conclusion from all this is that upgrading the intake will provide a marginal performance gain, may provide a more pleasing sound and may be ascetically pleasing to the owner. I don't conclude that any one of these choice will perform better any of the others outside of normally variability. Outside temperature, fuel quality, tire choices, driver habits..etc...etc...etc will have a much larger impact on actual on-road performance than the choice of intake, so buy the one that you like the most.

Am I missing anything?

 

I've been watching this as I intend to purchase in intake at some point and have drawn the following conclusions.

It seems that there are three main sources, Eurocompulsion, Madness and AFE.

...

Am I missing anything?

That seems to sum it up quite well.



I would like to point out that simply looking at the peak power gain number doesn't explain the entire picture. The real question that few ask, and should be asked is, "How does this ____ (intake, exhaust, etc...) effect the entire power band?" This is why I and others want to see the dyno chart.

The component at question could be raising all the low power/torque areas without raising the peak point much. This would in effect, make the car more drive-able and provide more power where it is usable. If the only real gain is at a single point (power spike), sure the tuner can claim gobs of power, but it's not usable power, just bragging rights at the pub.

As mentioned, how does this one part work with all the other parts I'm thinking of adding? It becomes real expensive real quick to dyno test every possible part in every possible combination. When a company such as EuroCompulsion publishes a dyno chart with a group, or set of parts, that's probably the set to use, if you like the dyno curve. I'm not implying that you can't get better results with other parts, only that the question can't be answer well without another dyno chart to look at.

The only other test result I would entertain as being well suited would be race track lap times. For these lap times, I would expect the only changes to be the parts in question. If something else has been changes, tire pressure, tires, shocks, etc... the results will be corrupt.

Total power band curve as shown on a dyno chart juxtaposed with the OEM curve as taken on the same dyno. Before and after results.

 

This thread:


"The box said 10 horsepower!"


Intakes don't do anything on a stock car.


All that will happen is you'll be able to hear some turbo spool.
If you want power, you'll need to go down the tuning route - and that's not a nice place to be unless you're going to set aside $5000 for engine repairs if you blow a turbo.

 

CARB certification is cost prohibitive, that is the bottom line at this point.

80 Page guide on CARB certs.

https://www.sema.org/files/attachments/sema-black-book.pdf

After reading that.....

https://media.giphy.com/media/WxbJFOSaaV53q/giphy.gif

 

Just out of curiosity, how much might it cost to get an intake certified? Ballpark figures. I realize that this would raise the cost of the item to the consumer and the vendor may still have a hard time recouping.

On a separate note, anybody care to write up a condensed summary of that 80 page PDF? I caught the part that said, "1990".

 

I took a look at the CARB docs and it would appear that the testing is potentially quite extensive. For an intake specific to the Giulia, only the one vehicle needs to be tested, in a before and after comparison to establish the baseline and the modified emissions performance. Besides the parameters below, the performance and quality of the modified parts is to be assessed to ensure that there isn't an attempt to modify the part based on say drivability. I haven't got enough experience with dyno testing to estimate how long it would take to measure the different operating conditions - can these labs generate hot and cold weather conditions for example? A literal interpretation would suggest that improving any of the emissions performance figures by more than the listed amount the part would also fail.

"The add-on or modified part will be in compliance with these procedures if the difference between the device emission test result and the baseline emission test result is equal to or less than the following limits:

Hydrocarbons 0.10 grams per mile or 10% of baseline
Carbon monoxide 1.0 grams per mile or 15% of baseline
Oxides of nitrogen 0.10 grams per mile or 10% of baseline
Particulates 0.03 grams per mile or 15% of (diesel only) baseline
Evaporative emissions 0.2 gram per test or 10% of baseline"

 

Wouldn't testing like this normally be done by a third party that has the right equipment and personnel training to do the tests? I think some evap tests require an environmental chamber that the car is put into.

 

Hi Lockem,
You were more patient then me, reading through it. I took it that the four cars would be if the part applies to multiple models, potentially from different manufacturers. Intercoolers are included in the annex for parts that have a standard set of criteria to test. Air filters don't so it seems to be just testing the emissions. On what would be included, I reckon anything that affects the combustion directly, so fuel, air, spark, exhaust, ECM, head, pistons. But a radiator, which if it changed the engine temperature, could change emissions, probably isn't included as the thermostat would have primary control.

 

Some notes:

The intercooler on most cars is in the intake path, post turbo. For Giulia it is more complicated than that, making it harder to figure out what they are trying to say regarding the exemption.

What I was specifically looking for in the list of exempted or excluded parts is confirmation that a "cat back" exhaust modification is always smog legal. I did not find any such thing, but I also need not find what parts are included or excluded from being emissions affecting. I think someone from EC has also said in the forums that anything from the atmospheric intake to the MAF is considered not emission affecting (i.e. EC's V1 intake is smog legal) but I cannot find anything to match.

Anyway, it might be worthwhile to call around and find out:

1) What a phone call to CARB yields.
2) How much a test facility (there are several in So-Cal, others are widely scattered) charges to perform the tests revealed by 1).

If we can get the cost of testing and approval down to a couple hundred dollars per participant, I certainly would be game for that. At some point taking a chance with the $10k fine (you have to get caught first) looks like the better option...

In any case the confusing nature and incompleteness of the instructions provide a ready out for the big fine: I did not know that this modification was emissions affecting. In fact, an honest statement at this point (I think it might be emissions affecting is not the same as I know it is emissions affecting).

 

CARB testing won't be much use to me in Australia, sorry, but don't let me stop you.

My own thoughts on cat-back systems are that if they are changing the power and torque outputs, which is usually claimed, then it would be logical that the emissions should be checked. Changing the exhaust is likely to affect how the turbo makes boost and even the exhaust scavenging. Add more boost and the ECU may decide to run richer, so hydrocarbons would go up. Not guaranteed, but if it wasn't checked, you wouldn't know.



On intakes more generally, I'll need to check when EC is hinting the V4 will arrive. Based on EC's blog on its Giulia, the filter it uses is not oil-cotton, so it passes that requirement in some Australian states. Plus being carbon fibre, it might look pretty special - hoepfully it is light on the logos.

 

All this work for +8 - 10HP ?

Bottom line for me is these intakes are for noise and or looks only. they offer no substantial increase in deliverable power whatsoever. +8hp won't even be felt in the driver seat, period ! you can't tell whether you car is pulling at 280 hp or 288hp

As others has said you can claim whatever hp gain you want. It's all Hokus pokus because your car may do more or less on the dyno than my car. Add in factors like air pressure, elevation, temperature etc. and it changes again. Do the test the next day the results change again.

JMHO

 

Hmm... So Cal has the strictest regulation in the US, so testing in So Cal would be a good idea, me thinks. I live in So Cal and have a V2 intake, in a sealed box. We can use my Giulia for the test. My Ti is stock, except for the ECU tune which is easily reversible. This gives us the before and after tests as the intake is still stock.

It would seem to me that EC has to be in on this as well. And we still don't know the actual (or proposed) cost.

Being CARB approved in the US won't help other countries, but it should indicate that other areas will be able to pass their tests as well.

My personal interest in this is that I don't want to have to swap out my intake every two years when we have to go get smogged.

 

OK, I checked: There are 58 counties in California, only 40 of which require periodic smog testing. Smog testing is always required when selling a car unless it is exempt (too old, or runs on CNG). Of course which county requires smog testing and which does not can change over time. Presumably this is driven by air quality relative to federal standards. My Giulia is registered to my address in Mono County, which is one of the 18 counties that currently do not require periodic smog testing.

The current air quality in Mono County is terrible, but that is due to smoke from wildfires (most of which are not in Mono County).

Anyway, I prefer to not have any potential exposure to large fines due to my car having questionable equipment.

I think the first things are to call CARB for instructions and call several test facilities to get a feel for the price range. Unfortunately I am already saturated with projects so there is no chance that I can work on it. CARB can say to what extent EC needs to be involved (possibly not at all, since this project may turn into "buy the parts from EC, mark with labels that indicate that it has passed testing, then resell at a price sufficient to cover the cost of the testing" type project. Of course if EC would do this, so much the better.

I have no clue how you are supposed to label a SW only tune.

FWIW: according to EC's dyno testing the power band was substantially widened so that near max power is produced over about 200RPM more range (IIRC +20WHP at 4800 RPM); a more significant change than the 8WHP at the peak. I presume that EC did the testing back to back in order to minimize variability, but do not know.

Also in the extreme case essentially any modification to the car is emissions affecting. Changing tires alters rolling resistance, adding a spoiler changes aerodynamic resistance, adding the weight of accessories to the car increases engine loading in start-stop situations, etc etc.

I wonder if anyone has bothered to smog test any of the few fuel cell cars? Only emits water? Just like a gas powered car only emits CO2 and H2O?

 

Any type of exposed conical filter is just a bad idea. They are more susceptible to collect dirt and they can get soaked with water in heavy rain. I don't care what these manufacturers advertise. An air filter is not going to give you 10 horsepower. It is marketing BS. Dynos have margins of error. A car can exhibit 5-10hp fluctuations by not doing anything at all. It's funny too because independent testers have been debunking intake horsepower claims for decades now.

If you have the burning desire to change your intake, make sure it's an enclosed box. The aFe Momentum is a good option.

 

So from this thread all I have learned is more reasons to never set foot in california.

Anyone want to actually talk about intakes instead of how bad that state sucks?

I go back and forth on if I want to add an intake or the DV+ to my car. For both, advantages are constantly disputed and both have caused CELs from my understanding.

The aFe design seems superior due to the closed box design. My opinion.

But did Alfa Romeo really screw up something so simple as an air intake that they left 15 ft/lbs on the table? That question alone is hard to wrap my brain around and is what keeps me from buying one.

 

So from this thread all I have learned is more reasons to never set foot in california.

Anyone want to actually talk about intakes instead of how bad that state sucks?

I go back and forth on if I want to add an intake or the DV+ to my car. For both, advantages are constantly disputed and both have caused CELs from my understanding.

The aFe design seems superior due to the closed box design. My opinion.

But did Alfa Romeo really screw up something so simple as an air intake that they left 15 ft/lbs on the table? That question alone is hard to wrap my brain around and is what keeps me from buying one.

Then why are you wanting to add them?

 

Also, another puzzling fact: aFe claims more HP than TQ gains. Opposite of EC's data.

 

Like I said myself, all that data is BS. Engines have a maximum air volume rate that they can suck in at any given time. It is very unlikely that a factory intake will underflow the engine. Especially on turbo systems because they operate at programmed pressures. If a turbo is outputting it's maximum potential, removing intake restriction is not going to make it produce more power. Also, if a turbo is running at the rate it should be, it is obviously not restricted.

 

Just a clarification point from early posts on this thread...

Someone said the drivetrain loss on the Giulia was notably higher towards the top of the RPM range. Looking at the dyno charts for a stock Giulia vs a Giulia with the V2 intake, the stock car made 231.2 whp and 275.4 ft-lbs of torque while the manufacturer has given crank numbers of 280 hp and 306 ft-lbs of torque.

Theoretically if we assume all numbers to be perfectly accurate, when looking at hp figures there is a (280-231.2)/280=17.5% drivetrain loss for hp @~5500rpm. On the other hand there seems to only be a (306-275.4)/306=10% drivetrain loss for torque @~3000rpm.

Now I have no idea if I'm onto something but could drivetrain loss increase almost linearly with rpm? ~1% per 300rpm? 5500rpm/300rpm= 18.33% which is awfully close to the 17.5% calculated from the whp numbers. Does anyone know if there is a theoretical/mathematic relationship between rpm and drivetrain loss? Asking purely out of curiosity.

 

Just a clarification point from early posts on this thread...

Someone said the drivetrain loss on the Giulia was notably higher towards the top of the RPM range. Looking at the dyno charts for a stock Giulia vs a Giulia with the V2 intake, the stock car made 231.2 whp and 275.4 ft-lbs of torque while the manufacturer has given crank numbers of 280 hp and 306 ft-lbs of torque.

Theoretically if we assume all numbers to be perfectly accurate, when looking at hp figures there is a (280-231.2)/280=17.5% drivetrain loss for hp @~5500rpm. On the other hand there seems to only be a (306-275.4)/306=10% drivetrain loss for torque @~3000rpm.

Now I have no idea if I'm onto something but could drivetrain loss increase almost linearly with rpm? ~1% per 300rpm? 5500rpm/300rpm= 18.33% which is awfully close to the 17.5% calculated from the whp numbers. Does anyone know if there is a theoretical/mathematic relationship between rpm and drivetrain loss? Asking purely out of curiosity.

It is not perfectly linear and those dynos are rediculously inaccurate.

 

So are you saying that there is, in fact, some sort of correlation between engine rpm and % drivetrain loss? I suppose variables within each gear would also affect exact drivetrain loss at various loads/rpms. It's all pretty complex I'm sure.