[MR_X]

Personally I would like to see a turbo upgrade come out for this car to keep the power climbing all the way to redline rather than fizzle out, however there could be other issues at play such as peak cylinder pressures or fuel limitations or even intercooler limits that don't make it a cost effective or worthwhile upgrade.

(Sorry for any typos this was written from my phone)

Turbo upgrade is not hard. Since the OEM turbo seems to have a T3 divided exhaust flange, It is easy to upgrade the turbo. The issue becomes the downpipe and wastegate. There are also companies that will take your OEM turbo and upgrade it. I did a quick search on this and they are mostly in the UK though. I'm sure if I dig enough, I can find one in the US.

Just an example

GT2871R w/ T3 Divided | atpturbo.com

 

[Dj-oohlya]

Whos gonna tune the big turbo upgrade, assuming its possible? I cant even find a custom calibrator on oem setup let alone a whole new setup.

I dont expect much as far as performance upgrades on this platform because the market isnt there. But nothing is stopping anyone from buying a bigger turbo, custom fabricating fitment and with motec being able to tune, but this isnt practical for everyday enthusiast.

 

[MR_X]

That’s the issue. Not a whole lot of demand for it.

Then there is also the complexity of this car how everything is set up. I mean the intake temps can be easily fixed by adding a FMIC on top of the built in one but it makes think more complex.
Downpipe can be made so can be a mounting solution for the wastegate. Who’s going to go through all this trouble then to find that fuel is an issue. It just doesn’t add up from a demand point of view.

Till there is a way to get full ECU control isn’t really worth trying.

 

[Go_a_way1]

Turbo upgrade is not hard. Since the OEM turbo seems to have a T3 divided exhaust flange, It is easy to upgrade the turbo. The issue becomes the downpipe and wastegate. There are also companies that will take your OEM turbo and upgrade it. I did a quick search on this and they are mostly in the UK though. I'm sure if I dig enough, I can find one in the US.

Just an example

GT2871R w/ T3 Divided | atpturbo.com

Exactly. It would be nice to have a simple bolt on solution but I personally don't want to spend tons of money getting someone to fab everything up to make it work. Getting the OEM upgraded seems interesting but I would imagine that with the R&D budget fiat had for this car there would be little left on the table vs some aftermarket solution as far as the stock turbo goes. I could be wrong though?

 

[bhvrdr]

Whos gonna tune the big turbo upgrade, assuming its possible? I cant even find a custom calibrator on oem setup let alone a whole new setup.

I dont expect much as far as performance upgrades on this platform because the market isnt there. But nothing is stopping anyone from buying a bigger turbo, custom fabricating fitment and with motec being able to tune, but this isnt practical for everyday enthusiast.

Best bet for now is a jb4. Thats what the audi guys are using on the b9 s4 with their hybrid turbos. With map 6 you can program the boost offset per rpm based on the new turbos torque curve / boost curve.

 

[Go_a_way1]

Best bet for now is a jb4. Thats what the audi guys are using on the b9 s4 with their hybrid turbos. With map 6 you can program the boost offset per rpm based on the new turbos torque curve / boost curve.

But won't you still run into issues with the ECU because of all the safety things built in? What about fueling issues too since with more air your going to want more fuel, can the car adjust that much on its own?

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@bhvrdr yes but that controls only boost, what about timing, multiair, etc? Its a very crude way of “tuning” a car imo.

Exactly. It would be nice to have a simple bolt on solution but I personally don't want to spend tons of money getting someone to fab everything up to make it work. Getting the OEM upgraded seems interesting but I would imagine that with the R&D budget fiat had for this car there would be little left on the table vs some aftermarket solution as far as the stock turbo goes. I could be wrong though?

Power could be had just by using race fuels or ethanol/methanol. Other 2L DIT platforms gain from 50-100whp just by tuning for different fuels with higher octane. I have a 18 wrx that gained 90whp from 91oct tune to e50 (ethanol 50%) tune with same mods, only fuel different. So thats one example, and a route i would go if i had access to someone who could truly calibrate the ecu.

 

[Go_a_way1]

@bhvrdr yes but that controls only boost, what about timing, multiair, etc? Its a very crude way of “tuning” a car imo.



Power could be had just by using race fuels or ethanol/methanol. Other 2L DIT platforms gain from 50-100whp just by tuning for different fuels with higher octane. I have a 18 wrx that gained 90whp from 91oct to e50 (ethanol 50%) with same mods, only fuel different. So thats one example, and a route i would go if i had access to someone who could truly calibrate the ecu.

Sadly I can only get 94 octane here. They do have 1 E85 station but its a 30 minute drive from my house. I have been intrested in watermeth for this car but like you can't seem to find a way to properly tune it

 

[Dj-oohlya]

Sunoco 94, the purple stuff eh @Go_a_way1?

Just ethanol friend, then meth injection if unsatisfied with power you would get maxing out oem fuel system w ethanol. Its just simpler to use oem fueling and run different fuel rather then add water/meth inj which is a whole new system with potential for failure and lack of integration/communication with ecu.

Wishful thinking.. this is.

 

[Go_a_way1]

Sunoco 94, the purple stuff eh @Go_a_way1?

Just ethanol friend, then meth injection if unsatisfied with power you would get maxing out oem fuel system w ethanol. Its just simpler to use oem fueling and run different fuel rather then add water/meth inj which is a whole new system with potential for failure and lack of integration/communication with ecu.

Wishful thinking.. this is.

Petro Canada is where I find the 94 haha. I agree using better fuel would be simple enough if more people had access to it. If that was the case then maybe someone would make a conversation kit

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@Go_a_way1 conversion kit? For ethanol?

I am pretty certain that lines and injectors can handle it. The issue is tuning and availability of e85. Bringing up the wrx again, nothing was changed but in tank lpfp which delivers more fuel (to prevent hpfp starvation and lean condition). 22k miles later and not one isse, nothing but e51 for two years. 😉

 

[Go_a_way1]

@Go_a_way1 conversion kit? For ethanol?

I am pretty certain that lines and injectors can handle it. The issue is tuning and availability of e85. Bringing up the wrx again, nothing was changed but in tank lpfp which delivers more fuel (to prevent hpfp starvation and lean condition). 22k miles later and not one isse, nothing but e51 for two years. 😉

Yeah. Wouldn't you want to add a sensor to the fuel system and tie it into the ECU so you could tune for the exact ethonal content (or lack there of so you can run normal gas too)? It was popular on on of my previous cars for people to do that. I agree the rest of fuel system is probably fine for E85

 

[bhvrdr]

@bhvrdr yes but that controls only boost, what about timing, multiair, etc? Its a very crude way of “tuning” a car imo.



Power could be had just by using race fuels or ethanol/methanol. Other 2L DIT platforms gain from 50-100whp just by tuning for different fuels with higher octane. I have a 18 wrx that gained 90whp from 91oct tune to e50 (ethanol 50%) tune with same mods, only fuel different. So thats one example, and a route i would go if i had access to someone who could truly calibrate the ecu.

Its crude but works very well on the b9 s4. They are going from 340hp to 600hp and running 12.8 quarter miles to 10.6 with no issue. No other upgrades other than intercooler and hybrid turbo. If Terry makes a fuel rail harness it bumps rail pressure and keeps trims back zerod out as long as the fuel system can keep up and with most direct injection there seems to be quite a bit of headroom. Wed just have to see. He can also give a meth map if desired.

SRM GTX3582R BB turbo upgrade

Update 2019/01/30 Turbo is finally installed! Follow thread for development and impressions Update 2018/11/21 Thread title change now that I am using the SRM hybrid turbo instead of the Pure stage 2 Update 2018/11/08 After collecting some info I decided to go with the gtx3582r ball...

www.audizine.com

Btw, its pure turbo and srmmotorsports that are making those hybrids if anyone wanted to reach out.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

Flex fuel kit. Yes i built my own but its pretty irrelevant if:

1. E85 content doesnt change
2. Always use one fuel

Id be perfectly satisfied with singe fuel e51 tune for the Alfa since my ethanol is always 51%. There is nooo way someone would make Alfa flex capable, i just dont see it so dont get hopes up.

Car is capable of trimming (up to a point of course) fuel and “adapt” to the fuel in the tank as far as fuel/air mixture goes. Timing would be more critical to keep in line with fuel type changes and flex sensor/kit allows for real time adjusting in response to fuel change.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@bhvrdr but in audi and vw world jb4 can add timing too no?

 

[bhvrdr]

@bhvrdr but in audi and vw world jb4 can add timing too no?

The jb4 cant really add timing. Timing targets are programmed into the calibrations and i know you know the piggyback doesnt change and ecu tables directly but rather their outputs by intercepting their sensors.

So for fuel they can intercept the fuel rail sensor and bias it creating more fuel and allowing for a bunch more headroom in trims.

For boost, they can obviously intercept map and if needed the electronic wastegate to gain more control (something ive emailed terry about testing for us now)..

but for timing there really are no sensors to directly manipulate so instead all you get is very passive manipulation of timing through the manipulation of boost. The more you attenuate the boost signal, the less boost the ecu thinks the car is making and some ecus are therefore calibrated to request more timing. It works ok on some ecus that have very complex timing tables that can take advantage of lower boost, higher octane, etc to make power...

The problem with the alfa is that this doesnt seem to happen. Stock tune shows no timing advance even when boost is attenuated.

This is a bummer if you want to benefit from e85 on the stock turbo because, lets say, boost is pretty maxed on stock turbo. So you want to go heavy on timing. Now you need a flash tuner wiling to calibrate an e40 file for you.

Its not much of an issue though using the jb4 on a hybrid turbo because youre going to be adding a significant amount more boost up top and chances are very slim youll be looking to or able add more timing on top of that.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

This is a bummer if you want to benefit from e85 on the stock turbo because, lets say, boost is pretty maxed on stock turbo. So you want to go heavy on timing. Now you need a flash tuner wiling to calibrate an e40 file for you.

Yes, exactly what i need. One who has control over cars logic and ecu rather than crude ways of tuning, like i had said.

I got emotion+ coming in the mail as well as MES adapter and cables. Plan is to log extensively before then flash tune. I will try my best to have them do some custom calibrating assuming that they have capabilities and are willing.. because i have access to ethanol for example. Or perhaps id like 1 less psi of boost up top and a taper of my power curve rather then a peak.

 

[Terry@BMS]

The JB4 is a great tuning tool and can certainly do more for the Giulia technically as the market grows. But right now it's a small market and most customers are looking for tune only performance in a format they can quickly install/remove, or those who are running E85 are happy to limit themselves to 30% within the JB4's current range of control for the platform.

As there are more cars out there hoepfully the market will continue to expand and we'll get to the point that larger turbos and more direct fuel and timing control make sense to develop.

 

[kozak]

The JB4 is a great tuning tool and can certainly do more for the Giulia technically as the market grows. But right now it's a small market and most customers are looking for tune only performance in a format they can quickly install/remove, or those who are running E85 are happy to limit themselves to 30% within the JB4's current range of control for the platform.

As there are more cars out there hoepfully the market will continue to expand and we'll get to the point that larger turbos and more direct fuel and timing control make sense to develop.

If I have 100% sure that jb4 can handle hybrid turbo I will order it in 5 minutes [emoji846]

Wysłane z mojego SM-G973F przy użyciu Tapatalka

 

[Alpha]

Timing still intrigues me... Hypothetically, what happens if the timing reported is being referenced off of multiair valve timing instead of crankshaft position? It would be odd to say the least...