[Dj-oohlya]

Reading this article again, assuming the WGDC measurent on my graph is reasonably correct, it seems like WGDC is rising gradually, steadily from 6% to 57% and is not maxing out even at the redline when I hit the rev limiter or was close to it and I backed off, meaning there are no significant restrictions on the exhaust side? Can someone review and explain if this looks correct and what you interpret from it for turbo performance/ECU control of the boost/wastegate?

The tune appears to be well calibrated for a nice low down fat midrange torque and still enough grunt at the top end. My car certainly feels rapid with the way it builds speed. I feel the restriction is now the factory Cat for the turbo perhaps? I certainly do not want to lose the nice low/mid range torque I have for the sake of extra power at the redline where I rarely drive, except when I am data logging So no bigger turbo or high flow cat/catless downpipe for massive dustbin sized exhausts for me.

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Yes your interpretation is correct. I think the turbo isnt maxing out assuming thats a true and accurate reflection of wgdc. In Subaru world a send it map has a wgdc of 99% maxing out the turbo effectively.. but, also in Subaru world youd expect to see a higher wgdc when building boost (wot conditions) and your value seems to increase slowly from 0-50s as if its building boost without wgdc being actuated. I feel, and i am no tuner just and ethusiast really, that true wgdc should be 99 when you stomp on it to build boost quickly then back off to 50s for example. Makes me think the value may be reversed or representing something else, or working with some other parameter. These are all guesses. So what i an saying is that 0s should be 99% and then when you built boost it drops to 20-30s which is equivalent of 99 minus 20-30 you have so resulting in 70-80 wgdc effectively to hold 28psi there. So basically read values as subtracted from what wgdc values should be for it to make sense. Reversed.. again i think it has to be to make sense. Wgdc cant be 0 when making boost, it should he 99%, hence reversed perhaps cuz its actuator and not the wastegate itself.

iDatalink refunded my money on ebay due to ‘rona19. I dont see grey snd blue cables on Alfissimo website, only as part of a 115$ package with obd to usb but thats out of stock. Will look elsewhere online but local to usa.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

So when you say “it seems like WGDC is rising gradually, steadily from 6% to 57% and is not maxing out..” i think the wgdc should be 99% while building boost under wot then back off gradually to lower values as desired boost is achieved, then stay there maintaining the boost by modulating wgdc. But this value is reversed. So i dunno.

Perhaps do a random 10sec log going off and on boost so we can track actuator value with your pedal request and see what its doing when requesting boost. In your last log it was 0 well into boost then backed off to 6 (think 99-6).. etc.

I could be wrong. Speculation based on what i am seeing. But if correct its the same thing basically just reversed 0-100 vs 100-0.

 

[stocki]

Maybe the readouts are simply wrong because he was using the QV PIDs?
Just because they read something - doesn't mean they're correct.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@stocki maybe but it does correlate nicely to what wgdc should be if you reversed the scale to 0-100?

As far as things read wrong, does anyone find lambda .95-1 strange? Is it also wrong or just strange? 🤷🏻‍♂️

On another note, i found two more companies that tune in UK and remap at your home, with money back guarantees, from 90 quid for a remap. Seems you guys are luckier than we are in North America.

 

[Triumph23]

@stocki maybe but it does correlate nicely to what wgdc should be if you reversed the scale to 0-100?
As far as things read wrong, does anyone find lambda .95-1 strange? Is it also wrong or just strange? 🤷🏻‍♂️

It is possibly reversed like you say or incorrect PID from QV as @stocki says. But @DeXa was the one who originally suggested or was it correct the last time he checked, I have linked his post below here. Perhaps he can chip in and clarify if my log is correct and how to interpret it??

wiTECH yes. In MES you can get it by selecting QV as base and in engine you can find it (ignore the ISO thing, just continue). Its reading was accurate last time I've checked, but don't rely on other data when using the QV ECM as base.

On another note, i found two more companies that tune in UK and remap at your home, with money back guarantees, from 90 quid for a remap. Seems you guys are luckier than we are in North America.

There are a lot of tuning companies who are either mobile or shop with dynos but very few can tune Giulias. The ones you refer to are generic tuners who just buy a Giulia map someone else has developed and flash it. It will be upwards of £300 or £400 in reality but I would rather trust Celtic Tuning who are well known and develop all their maps in house on their own dynos. There are a couple of Alfa specialists who tune as well, AHM for example, their main man has a QF of his own. The do not offer a self tuning device and I will need to go there.

Alfa Romeo Remaps | AHM Alfacare

alfacare.co.uk

 

[Triumph23]

@Dj-oohlya I have now reversed the Turbo actuator % reading from the QV PID and also multiplied by 10 to get the scale right and see if this now indicates WGDC%. Does this make sense or look as expected? The lambda readings are not accurate as on MES for QV you can only connect to 1 bank/ 3 cylinders. This probably messes up the 2.0 reading somehow so I have deleted them from the log.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@Triumph23 i am not necessarily saying that it should be reversed.. just what im used to, reading the other way around. Ultimately who cares what the scale is 0-100 or 100-0 as long as it is relative to wgdc, and that is the question. Are we reading wgdc and then HOW do we read it? Do we interpret it using wgdc logic you read about or some new Italian logic we dont fully understand. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Like for example lambda of 14:1 afr basically? Am i the only one bothered or confused by it? Am in reading it correctly or is it a calculated value based on some logic i dont follow?

 

[Triumph23]

@Triumph23 i am not necessarily saying that it should be reversed.. just what im used to, reading the other way around. Ultimately who cares what the scale is 0-100 or 100-0 as long as it is relative to wgdc, and that is the question. Are we reading wgdc and then HOW do we read it? Do we interpret it using wgdc logic you read about or some new Italian logic we dont fully understand. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Like for example lambda of 14:1 afr basically? Am i the only one bothered or confused by it? Am in reading it correctly or is it a calculated value based on some logic i dont follow?

The reversed graph kinda follows your logic of WGDC 100% until you mash the throttle for max boost demand and as boost starts to ramp up the wgdc flat line drops and eventually smooths down into a curve as boost builds. And yeah there is probably some Italian or MES logic to this. But assuming this is right, whether be it front or backwards, in your past experience of wgdc what is the consensus?

@bhvrdr @Alpha @DeXa any thoughts?

 

[Dj-oohlya]

Based on what i am seeing and applying wgdc logic i know i would guess that turbo is capable of more. Wgdc is 50ish when maintaining the boost into high rpms so there should be room for some more.

Any way of finding out what turbo is stock? I am thinking of calling Alfa dealer parts to ask.

 

[Alpha]

The gas pedal sends a torque request to the ECU. The ECU interprets the torque command and a host of other factors to determine a boost setpoint to which the wastegate is controlled to achieve.

It's much different then old school turbo setups with the wastegate just staying closed until it hits its pressure.

Just guessing here, but I believe there are protections in play to keep the turbo from running past its curve, protections on ensuring the wastegate is actually controlling, protections on the plastic intake, emissions factors, and whatever else they ran into during testing.

 

[Alpha]

I'll also repeat what I have been saying years - we will continue to be in the dark until we are able to attract a tuner that wants to be open (like Cobb) and expose the tables and sequence of controls and not obsessed with keeping everything top secret like the current crop of flash tuners.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@Alpha so do you think there are parameters that we cant monitor or are you saying that since we cant see tables and what parameters interact and how we are blind? Or perhaps both?

I am hoping that all the parameters are out there to log w MES but we may not be able to understand how they work together without tables.

I am not disagreeing w you though, and agree that things are looping back and feeding off of each other in tables we cant see. I wish we had Cobb ATR like solutions but we know its not gonna happen ever.

@Triumph23 is there turbine speed or rpm in there to log? While it isnt maxing that doesn’t mean that it should be maxed out or could be and put up with daily use long. Have you logged your oem map? Do you have logs still? Do you wanna look up and compare actuator % and lambda and boost and ign? Would give us an idea how much harder turbo is pushing to reach 28psi now among other things.

 

[Triumph23]

The gas pedal sends a torque request to the ECU. The ECU interprets the torque command and a host of other factors to determine a boost setpoint to which the wastegate is controlled to achieve.

It's much different then old school turbo setups with the wastegate just staying closed until it hits its pressure.

Just guessing here, but I believe there are protections in play to keep the turbo from running past its curve, protections on ensuring the wastegate is actually controlling, protections on the plastic intake, emissions factors, and whatever else they ran into during testing.

That is what I suspected but did not venture to guess. Thanks for the input. Quite interesting to understand the way the boost is controlled within the compressor curve, at least understand some aspects of it by the data logging. I forgot the intake manifold where the diverter valve is mounted is plastic.

I know it is a Honeywell / Garrett turbo. Found a few of references.

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[Triumph23]

@Dj-oohlya , I have some stock logs from 2 years ago but that is the 200hp version with a max boost of 18psig. Not sure what parameters I logged as I did not have MES back then just Torque pro. I will look at it later.

Also no turbine speed of turbo blades.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

Turbo Garrett GT2056Z specs // not the turbo on our cars. Error

smaller than in my 18 wrx which has a GT2259

 

[bhvrdr]

Thats not our turbo. Ours is proprietary and called the gt2056ksz. Different specs that i cant find.

 

[Dj-oohlya]

@bhvrdr it isnt far off. Same model and housing and most if it, but appreciate the clarification. I bet it flows the same too when we find the specs but for now this is better than nothing.

 

[bhvrdr]

I think its quite different. Ours is twin scroll on the turbine and .56 ar

 

[kozak]

I don't know what kind of turbo is in giulia, but dimensions of wheels are 43 m hot, 56mm cold



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[Dj-oohlya]

If we are to go off pics and whats been removed off the car then whats better than ebay linke @Triumph23 provided? Apparently those are off actual cars.

Your pics look slightly different than the pic on the turbo specs link. And that link was found by using ebay part number and turbo model. That bottom right number is the part number that Alfa parts gave me today. On your pic.

On another pic you can see 56 and 73. Lol