[VictorByFar]

@Dorifto Thanks for taking the time to document and video these occurrences. Very informative, we appreciate all the feedback from all the P2 tuners!

 

[moddeR]

It seems to have been previously indicated that the pops and bangs would only occur in Neutral or manual mode, but I can trigger this in A, N, and D while in automatic, pretty much any gear as long as rpms are above 2k. Tapping the pedal triggers just as much and as loud of the pops and bangs while in D with manual mode.

I was able to get pops and bangs while driving in N yesterday. Didn’t seem as pronounced as in D but I can’t be 100% sure. Didn’t try A...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scotchri]

Updated my handheld uploaded the files again, and trying one more time, if not ill go back to stock and wait for toby tomorrow

Well im waiting for tomorrow, still same issue, https://youtu.be/AvBpQbzf-Pw

**** sorry Dorifito, though I'm sure Toby will get you sorted out quickly. Also, do you know wate version model file you have? I wonder if there are others with same file experiencing this or will. I'll be loading my tune this weekend.

 

[JohnnyTheBeast]

I noticed that the multiple times I got the CEL and the Limp Home Mode, every time the code was P0039, along with the same warnings: "Service Throttle Position Sensor", same warning you used to be able to generate on command if you were holding the accelerator and the gas pedal at the same time. Second warning was "Service Engine." Never a flashing CEL, just constant once it would happen. I had to do the rev sequence twice when I installed the tune. Only on the second round, third rev did the engine rev to the indicated request of 6500RPM, every time beforehand it would hit 6k and bounce indicating redline. After the sequence of the revs were complete and the tune finished, the CEL was cleared. All was good until I got the two warnings along with the code after driving for awhile.

I tried doing the "Delete Errors" task with the car running, in accessory mode, as well as off, and every single time it would immediately say task completed errors cleared, but the codes along with the CEL remained. It never prompted me to start the engine or do the Rev task.

With my OBDII tool that I used to pull the code, If I cleared the code with the engine on, it would clear and immediately return, CEL never shutting off. If the car was in accessory power and I cleared it, the CEL and code would be gone at engine startup. Not sure if that indicates a programming/ECU fault or not, though every car I have had, including tuned ones, the codes and CEL would clear instantly after deleting them with the OBDII scan tool, and wouldn't return until triggered again while driving.

The CEL, warnings, and limp mode always seemed to occur either when downshifting to 2nd and right after a very loud "pop and bang" from the exhaust, or flooring it in 2nd and letting off the gas close to redline. Hopefully this helps...?

Drove the car in various modes today after clearing the codes and letting the car "sit and think" overnight, not a single CEL hiccup. Though what I do seem to be noticing is sometimes the car feels like it slips back into thinking its in N rather than D, even though the Knob is in D along with the Dash lights in red indicating D mode. I say this because every so often the car will get a little lazy, smooth slow upshifts and downshifts, steering gets that little bit lighter, brakes a little less touchy, and throttle response a little subdued. A quick flick from N immediately back to D immediately livens the car back up to what you expect... only to seem to fall back into a lazy mode again within the next 10-15 minutes. It's as if my car can't remember its in D mapping mode or something! Anyway, I didn't push it too hard today, and I was trying to keep the car from having any "pops and bangs" occur so I almost am attributing it to something in the writing process for the dual map w. pops and bangs.


ONE THING TO NOTE:

It seems to have been previously indicated that the pops and bangs would only occur in Neutral or manual mode, but I can trigger this in A, N, and D while in automatic, pretty much any gear as long as rpms are above 2k. Tapping the pedal triggers just as much and as loud of the pops and bangs while in D with manual mode. Could this be a write-error or tune file error?

Lastly, when watching the description video of the pops and bangs from EC, during the first example while in Neutral, the very first Revving example showing the Pops and Bangs, you can hear the warning chime immediately after... This is the exact chime I hear almost in the same time frame you hear in the video once pops and bangs are triggered. The Chime in my case is indicating the warning messages I receive along with the CEL and limp mode. You can hear the chime in the EC video at exactly 1:22. I was interested when I rewatched this video after I started having the CEL and limp mode, and wondering if this situation happened during that recording...?


Hopefully all of this helps EC get to the bottom of things in my case along with the others experiencing these symptoms.

100% EXACTLY THIS.

-same codes (P0039)
-same warnings (limp mode: service throttle, car forced into N mode, and service engine. cel not flashing, just solid. also makes the chime occasionally.)
-same rev sequence (only allows up to 6,000 rpm for the first few, but the cel is cleared after 6,500 rpm revs.)
-same del errors problem (doesn't prompt me to do anything and just says "task completed", but cel / limp mode remains)

-limp mode / cel occurs most commonly after loud bang from exhaust or when getting into redling, but not necessarily hitting the limiter (often the car wont even go over 6,000 rpm)
-letting the car "sit and think" overnight really does make a difference for some strange reason lol
-car does seem to get "lazy" and forget it's in D mode (really starts to feel like P1 N mode in my opinion), but a flick of the switch back and forth does immediately bring it back to life

@MJEWETT nice write up. perfectly explained.

P.S. Being able to trigger it in automatic mode is normal. Like they said, it's just much easier in manual because you can hold a specific gear. If the transmission is in automatic, but holding a lower gear for some reason (like going downhill or driving aggressively in D mode), it makes sense that you would still get pops and bangs by tapping the pedal.

 

[JohnnyTheBeast]

I have reason to believe that this has something to do with the handheld.

Tomorrow, I am going to use a MyGenius on our test car and do the entire process (read the file, make a tune file, load it to the MyGenius device, and flash to the car). Hopefully we will be able to replicate some of what is happening to a few of you this way, and figure out what the issue is.

Does this mean we might finally get a more modern tuner??? (most likely not lol)

Seriously though, I'm really interested to see the results of your "experiment" later today Toby.
I'm sure you'll discover that something is amiss with some component of the tuning process.

Some tips for your test (most of which I'm sure you've already considered):

Make sure that your MyGenius device and software is updated.
After the upload, assuming that it doesn't completely brick the vehicle (sorry @Dorifto lol), really try to push the car.
(My car has gone into limp mode probably two and a half dozen times over this past week and only once was it at relatively low rpms. I drove close to 200 miles in A mode, problem free, but it freaked out as soon as I moved the DNA switcher.)
Drive in manual and hold onto some lower gears.
Most failures occurred at the top of 1st and 2nd gear (over 5,000 rpm).
Based on videos taken by myself and another person experiencing these issues, I found that the "sweet spot" is around 40 mph.
Holding onto second gear, accelerating and decelerating from just below to just above 40 mph (and vice versa) a few times in a row (especially when inducing some pops and bangs during deceleration) almost always seems to kick the car into limp mode.

I've already posted the link, but just for your reference, this is a perfect example of how it usually occurs for me (fault at the very end):

good luck.
please try to touch base with us as soon as you run into anything relevant. :smile2:

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

I'll try to cover everything, as there are a few statements made in the thread that need to be addressed or corrected, and I've been driving our Giulia since early this morning until just a few minutes ago. Please read all of this information in its entirety, as their are some important things here.

First I'll address some statements:

- No, the chime in the video was from revving the car in neutral and having the door open, or the seatbelt disconnected, or both. I've said it before and I'll say it again (and I'm not attempting to hide this fact either), I have not experienced any of these issues with the tune on our test car, under any condition or circumstance.

- Pops and bangs will happen anytime you are using the pedal tap. They can happen in N and A mode, but are more subdued, and only occur if you're using the pedal tap. If no pedal tap, you get a little sound and then it goes away. I could not get our car in automatic mode to pop and bang, but I suppose if you go up to a high enough rpm in the right gear and let off before redline, it will allow some decel, and you will get some sound. But the previous statement still applies, you really have to use the pedal tap to get anything substantial.

- Whatever issues that are occurring are not related to the dual map or pops and bangs, it's not really related to anything having to do with the map. I know this because there are many on the same software versions as those with issues, who are running the same mix of different maps who do not have an issue. There are some with issues who are running the same mix of maps. It's not related to a specific feature or map choice.

- A code reader cannot clear codes while the engine is on.

Now on to my tests this morning:

- Early this morning I took out our Giulia as it sits now (Ph 2-Ph 1 Pops and bangs). Some of you are running this exact same tune. I put quite a bit of mileage on the car during this stint, and I hammered on the car pretty hard throughout this time (probably almost two hours of straight driving). I tried to replicate anything that some of you have experienced (low gear, high revs, inducing pops and bangs at various spots in the rpm range, various gears, WOT in all DNA modes, manual driving, automatic driving, cruising, part throttle, low rpm high gear lugging, low gear high rpm lugging, etc, etc). I seriously beat up the car trying to make it flinch, and I could not. It drove flawlessly.

- So, based on some information I have retrieved from some users who have emailed me, I came to the conclusion yesterday that their may be an issue with the handheld itself. I noticed that I had two customers, both had the same exact model Giulia, same software version, same mods, and were both running the exact same tune file (Ph 2-Ph 1 dual map). Because they have the same software version, they both would have received the exact same file (literally the same file from my tuning software). One was able to flash straight from their previous P1 tune to their new P2 map. They experienced no issue with flashing, and the car drives exactly as it should with no problems, with a few hundred miles of driving. Turns out their MyGenius had not been updated to a newer OS. The second customer was having all kinds of strange issues, many of which have already been posted here. They had trouble with flashing the car, and experienced issues trying to use the DEL errors procedure, etc. Their handheld is on a newer OS. This theory was consistent with other users having issues on a newer OS, and some not having issues on older OS versions.

I decided to do an experiment. I treated our car and myself as if I were a customer with a MyGenius, doing all of the exact same procedures you would do to tune your car, and doing exactly what I would do on my end to get your tune file made and ready for your handheld. I've done this before with P1, but it was only to make instructions and test everything, not to troubleshoot a potential issue. Everything I did throughout this procedure is exactly what you would have to do. I was confident this was an issue with the handheld OS, and was sure I would see the same issues (or at least one of them), that you all may be having. Here's how it went:

- Flashed our car back to stock (the original stock file that was on our test car) using my master tool.
- Drove and made sure the car was stock, and functioning properly. It was on both accounts.
- Set up a MyGenius unit (that's your handheld) for us to use, and updated it to have the latest OS and build (6.030 build 2)
- We ID'd the ECU, and generated a file to send to the tuning portal.
- Uploaded file to the tuning portal.

Now what I would normally do for you guys:
- Download the .fpf file, and unpack the file.
- View software version and vehicle info.
- Go to tuning software, match corresponding software version to the downloaded file. Choose appropriate tune file that I have made (in this case Ph 2-Ph 1 Pops and bangs). This is an actual file some of you are running on your cars. I also did the stock file just in case I ran into an issue, which I fully expected to at this point.
- Pack the tune file so it is in MyGenius format, and upload to the portal for the customer (me)

Now as the customer:
- Download the file from the portal to my computer
- Plug handheld into computer, open client software
- Upload the tune file (and stock file as well) to the handheld
- Take the handheld out to the car to flash

Flashing the car:
- Plug handheld into car, select work, then write.
- Scroll right to select "Ph 2-Ph 1 P&B). Hit OK.
- Go through various Dash On/Off prompts, then handheld begins to program file to the ECU.
- After finishing, follow dash off prompts, and proceed.

Now here is where it gets tricky, and where I think some of the problems are being created (something about the car does not like this if you do it any other way):

- After a series of Dash/On off prompts, the handheld tells me to start the engine, and press ok.
- Start engine, press ok.
- Warm up progress bar proceeds to fill
- Once done, handheld prompts me to "Rev to 6500 RPM, going back to idle, 3 times". There is a loading bar at the bottom that is essentially timing this procedure.

- A few things here: When the car is first started, it will only allow revs to 6000rpm for a certain amount of time (this is for engine warmup, coolant warmup, catalyst warming, etc, etc, not just any one thing). After this period is over, it can rev higher now that we have changed the RPM redline.
- The way that we all perform this procedure here at the shop: rev slowly to 6000rpm, and let it touch the rev limiter for a second or two once it is reached. Also, starting the rev from an idle rpm, the pedal should be fully depressed to the floor by the time you reach redline, it should push off the rev limiter. Then let off, and allows the rpms to go back idle, and remain there for 5-10 seconds. Perhaps I did not explain this thoroughly enough in the beginning.

So back to the next step:

- We begin revving to 6000rpm just as I described above.
- We did this 3 times. However, the flashing CEL was still present.
- I looked down at our time loading bar, and saw that we still had more than half of the allotted time left.
- I decided to rev a 4th time, and on this attempt, the flashing CEL went away. This was still revving to 6000rpm.
- Dash off prompt showed, and I shut the car off and continued with the procedure until I received the writing ECU completed message.
- The handheld processed its log file, and arrived back at the main menu.
- I then disconnected from the car.


At this point, I took the car out and drove for a few hours, trying to replicate and simulate everything I had earlier that day on the tune file that was flashed with my master tool. At one point, I even stopped to refuel (I wanted to try and replicate the issue RacerZ had at the gas station).

Unfortunately I was unable to get the car to do anything differently than how it had performed earlier that morning. The car ran flawlessly, and without issue.

After analyzing the log files from the flash, and comparing this information to what I have seen from some users, I came to what I think is a pretty solid conclusion. Because of the raised redline in P2, and the changes in some of the OS updates for the handheld, the rev procedure is much more sensitive than it was before. Something is happening on the first round of the rev procedure where:

(1) if you do not complete the procedure on the first round and the ignition has to be turned off, then back on again, the ECU is storing information as pending codes or errors (almost like a pending recovery). Once this is done, I believe it will take multiple tries for the handheld to process all errors stored or pending before it can erase them completely. If they are not erased completely, some of this information will be waiting when you first start to drive.

(2) if the revs are not performed as described (or as the ECU and handheld expect to see them) something is amiss with the throttle learn. It needs to effectively match up the given rpm with throttle position and other information. Same as above, if the rev procedure or DEL errors has to be performed multiple times, the throttle adaptation is somehow off slightly (especially with the rpm limit changing after you've turned off and on the car). This is why after going through this and having to perform the DEL errors procedure multiple times the tune doesn't quite feel right in a specific mode.

I was really hoping this was just an issue with the handheld, but it would appear it is much more complex than that. Simply put, it really comes down to the rev procedure, at least that's what I'm seeing.

What I would recommend:

- Some of you may need to reflash your map, or try reflashing one of your non pops and bangs map (just a different map than what's already on the car).
- Perform the rev procedure as described, but use all of the allotted time in the progress bar. This means, if you have revved 3 times and you still have the CEL, continue to rev effectively until there is no more time remaining. Tested on my master tool, you should be able to get 6-7 revs at least within the allotted time. I will have to edit the installation instructions to reflect this as an option, but on the MyGenius and on my master tool, you can rev as many times as able to within the time. This has completed the procedure within the first round everytime. Once completed in the first round, there were no following issues.
- I believe, based on the logs and what we did this morning, that you will be able to complete the flash procedure and eliminate the CEL within the first round of revving (if done correctly), and be able to proceed without issue.

- I also want to point this out ahead of time: Yes, I am telling you to do differently than what the screen on the handheld says at this point. I will edit the instructions to reflect this. I will also let Dimsport know, but only they can make the change to the procedure. For now, this is what I recommend when you arrive at this point of the flash process.

On another note, Dorifto's issue is different than what everyone else is experiencing. There is a bug within this file exchange (he is on an older software version), and I will have to sort this one out through the software on my end. This issue is not related to the other issues occurring.

Hopefully all of this makes sense, I know it's quite a read.

 

[stocki]

Thanks. I held off and waited to install my P2 before I had more info.

Pretty confident now that all will be fine. I've finished the rev-process multiple times and every time on the first try when installing P1 .
@toby@eurocompulsion

In the past, I've driven the car between writing and the rev-process in order to speed up the engine warmup process. Would you advise against this?

 

[AlfaAndy]

Does anyone (else) here find all of this required revving to 6000RPMs unsettling? In my years of automotive experience, this type of revving your engine (in neutral) has always been discouraged for fear of damaging the engine. @toby@eurocompulsion ??

 

[stocki]

Does anyone (else) here find all of this required revving to 6000RPMs unsettling? In my years of automotive experience, this type of revving your engine (in neutral) has always been discouraged for fear of damaging the engine. @toby@eurocompulsion ??

In your years of automotive experience there hasn't been MultiAir

This reving-process is not only used by this tuning method but also in dealerships.

(Not meant to be negative or criticise you in any way)

 

[Dorifto]

Im the lucky winner here, if you think you have problems with your p2 tunes i laugh at you hahah

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

Thanks. I held off and waited to install my P2 before I had more info.

Pretty confident now that all will be fine. I've finished the rev-process multiple times and every time on the first try when installing P1 .
@toby@eurocompulsion

In the past, I've driven the car between writing and the rev-process in order to speed up the engine warmup process. Would you advise against this?

Normally I would recommend against this, only because it opens the door I guess for "potential" issues, key word being potential. I've never actually tried it this way, so it's good to know you have had success with it. I don't recall anyone ever mentioning anything before about an issue doing it this way though.

 

[stocki]

Normally I would recommend against this, only because it opens the door I guess for "potential" issues, key word being potential. I've never actually tried it this way, so it's good to know you have had success with it. I don't recall anyone ever mentioning anything before about an issue doing it this way though.

It's 10:30 pm here.
Tomorrow is friday - I'm feeling brave. Will do it tomorrow afternoon.

I have been on the stock map for over a month. Can you imagine this?

I'll keep you updated about the results.

 

[AlfaAndy]

@stocki, imo, the addition of multiair just adds to the unsettling-ness.

Yes, you are correct, the Dealership did this when they reflashed the ecu update. FYI, they had to only rev once to redline. Even so, that alone doesn't alleviate my concern.

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

Does anyone (else) here find all of this required revving to 6000RPMs unsettling? In my years of automotive experience, this type of revving your engine (in neutral) has always been discouraged for fear of damaging the engine. @toby@eurocompulsion ??

Yes lol, and no too.

This procedure is standard for ECU reprogramming, whether here or at the dealer, factory, etc. I do find it odd that it is required, and there are other makes/models that require it as well. Obviously Alfa knows it's there, and possibly even put it in intentionally (for what reason I do not know).

I'm glad they're the ones who made this happen, hopefully that means they know it can handle the revving.

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

Another option that another user who has had no issues mentioned to me that has worked effectively, is to make sure you're in Natural mode when doing the rev process. This helps control the RPM and redline more at first startup.

Unfortunately I do not remember if I was in N or D today when I flashed the car, but the logic behind this is sound.

 

[stocki]

Another option that another user who has had no issues mentioned to me that has worked effectively, is to make sure you're in Natural mode when doing the rev process. This helps control the RPM and redline more at first startup.

Unfortunately I do not remember if I was in N or D today when I flashed the car, but the logic behind this is sound.

Confirmed.

I always was in N when flashing P1 and nailed it every time.

 

[AlfaAndy]

@toby@eurocompulsion, I am aware of this, but still unsettled. Like a medical doctor, I try to do no harm. Or at least as little harm as needed. Most likely the engine in your test mule has seen more of this revving than any other Giulia. I'm hopeful that you would be forthcoming and truthful if you encounter any engine problems.

 

[beaups]

@toby@eurocompulsion, I am aware of this, but still unsettled. Like a medical doctor, I try to do no harm. Or at least as little harm as needed. Most likely the engine in your test mule has seen more of this revving than any other Giulia. I'm hopeful that you would be forthcoming and truthful if you encounter any engine problems.

if the engine is warmed up, how is revving to 6k a few times any worse than the 50 times you'll do it on the next few drives?

 

[AlfaAndy]

if the engine is warmed up, how is revving to 6k a few times any worse than the 50 times you'll do it on the next few drives?

I'm not stating this with any engineering knowledge-education, but the difference may be that when driving (in gear) there is a load (more load?) from the driveline onto the engine that is different and beneficial, compared to revving in neutral.

 

[toby@eurocompulsion]

@toby@eurocompulsion, I am aware of this, but still unsettled. Like a medical doctor, I try to do no harm. Or at least as little harm as needed. Most likely the engine in your test mule has seen more of this revving than any other Giulia. I'm hopeful that you would be forthcoming and truthful if you encounter any engine problems.

Absolutely, yes, and I completely understand your concerns.

I've probably flashed the car 60-70 times, so if something's going to break, we should get to it before anyone else does. So far the engine has been a champ, we've put over 30,000 test miles on it in a very short period.

The only real issues we've had was when we first received the car (some seal recall that was leaking coolant near the turbo), and recently it needed an alignment really bad.

We may have gone too heavy with sliding the car on the back roads.