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Discussion Starter #1
So I finally installed the ST/KW lowering springs as I needed more camber up front. Ran it for 200 miles thru all sorts of bumpy roads to get the springs to sit properly.

As verified with a few early 2017 Quads, for the 2018 models, Alfa Romeo truly did raise the ride height by about 1inch/25mm. With the front camber being non-adjustable, the only way to return the Quad's handling to the original settings was to lower it!!

The 2017 ride height is given for comparison. Mine is a mid-2018 Giulia Quadrifoglio.

All measurements for my car were done with 3/4 tank of fuel and measured from the ground to the edge of the fender. Tire pressures are F35/R33psi cold (cold being relative as it is 80-95F year round where I live!).

2017 ride height:
Front 26 5/8"
Rear 26 7/8"

2018 ride height (on factory springs):
Front 27 1/2"
Rear 28"
Splitter leading edge 7 1/4"

Lowered height (with ST springs):

Front 26 1/8"
Rear 26 5/8"
Splitter leading edge 6"

With these numbers, I can now verify that the total drop in ride height is a consistent 35mm or 1 3/8" across all 4 wheels. I hope this clears up the confusion on the spring manufacturer's website as people were uncertain whether the figures given for the drop in ride height were in reference to 2017 or 2018 models.

Alignment was then checked with toe adjusted. By the way, the front wheels can only adjust for toe as camber is strictly dependent on ride height. The rear wheels have camber adjustment but they are NOT independent of toe settings. I have to say that straight out of the factory, alignment settings were pretty much spot on. Here are the final numbers with the lowered ST/KW springs:

Front camber -0.88deg (slightly more than factory spec of -0.58deg, and that's for the 2017 models!).
Front caster +6.5deg (spot on).
Front toe 0.

Rear camber -2.16deg (factory spec of -1.5deg).
Rear toe +0.16deg toe in per side.
Total toe +0.33deg toe in.

Am quite happy with the numbers with regards to the slight increase in front camber. Ideally, this car should be running somewhere in the region of -1.5 to -2.0deg of camber up front for performance driving. Am awaiting the day someone makes a set of adjustable lateral arms for the fronts! Till then, maybe I'll consider a set of Bridgestone RE070R2s with their super stiff sidewalls as my next set of tires! :wink2:

Cheers!
 

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Ok, so, you have not actually modified the car to have adjustable front suspension. Is that correct?

Yes, changing the ride height of the car (any car) will change the camber slightly, some more than others.
 

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Well, done OP - thanks for sharing your info!

Your research confirms my suspicions...ST springs will be a "must-do" modification for me! And yeah, hopefully as you said, the aftermarket offers options for adjusting front camber as well.

Thanks again for sharing your info!
 

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Hmm, and I was just getting used to going in and out of my driveway without my ramps. ;) Please post some pics. Are you doing you own alignment? Eurocompulsion should have their front camber adapters out soon.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Ok, so, you have not actually modified the car to have adjustable front suspension. Is that correct?

Yes, changing the ride height of the car (any car) will change the camber slightly, some more than others.
No, I haven't modified the car's front suspension. But by lowering it 35mm at the front, I now have -0.88deg of camber. Goodness knows how little camber the 2018 models have as stock, since Alfa decided to raise the ride height from the original which set the Nordschleife record... which I'm sure is what got it rave reviews with regards to handling in the first place!

As far as I know, only Madness makes a set of adjustable upper control arms right now, but they are for the rears only.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well, done OP - thanks for sharing your info!

Your research confirms my suspicions...ST springs will be a "must-do" modification for me! And yeah, hopefully as you said, the aftermarket offers options for adjusting front camber as well.

Thanks again for sharing your info!
Yeah, we need more camber up front that's for sure! I don't intend to track this car seriously but I still figure about -1.5 degrees of camber would be an ideal place to start. The way I see it, with all that active torque vectoring and relatively large amount of castor the QV has (which gives dynamic camber), Alfa probably thought it didn't need that much static camber to begin with.

In either case, I was torn between the ST/KW springs and the H&R ones. But was worried that the latter would have resulted in too much lowering as my greatest concern now is the 3" Centerline Stradale (Magnaflow) exhaust which is now the lowest point of my car. Ground clearance is barely 10cm/4" now! :surprise:

By the way, does anyone know what the stock spring rates are for the Quadrifoglio? The ST's are 7.4kg/mm and 7.8kg/mm for the fronts and rears respectively. And for those wondering if the ride quality suffers, I'd say hardly. :wink2:
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Hmm, and I was just getting used to going in and out of my driveway without my ramps. ;) Please post some pics. Are you doing you own alignment? Eurocompulsion should have their front camber adapters out soon.
Hi John, sorry I've been travelling. Pics will come soon... :wink2:

And no, I don't do my own alignment. Got a pro race shop to do it for me. The ST springs are a consistent set and post installation, only the front left required a slight adjustment of toe. Pretty consistent coming from the factory!
 

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So I finally installed the ST/KW lowering springs as I needed more camber up front. Ran it for 200 miles thru all sorts of bumpy roads to get the springs to sit properly.

As verified with a few early 2017 Quads, for the 2018 models, Alfa Romeo truly did raise the ride height by about 1inch/25mm. With the front camber being non-adjustable, the only way to return the Quad's handling to the original settings was to lower it!!

The 2017 ride height is given for comparison. Mine is a mid-2018 Giulia Quadrifoglio.

All measurements for my car were done with 3/4 tank of fuel and measured from the ground to the edge of the fender. Tire pressures are F35/R33psi cold (cold being relative as it is 80-95F year round where I live!).

2017 ride height:
Front 26 5/8"
Rear 26 7/8"

2018 ride height (on factory springs):
Front 27 1/2"
Rear 28"
Splitter leading edge 7 1/4"

Lowered height (with ST springs):

Front 26 1/8"
Rear 26 5/8"
Splitter leading edge 6"

With these numbers, I can now verify that the total drop in ride height is a consistent 35mm or 1 3/8" across all 4 wheels. I hope this clears up the confusion on the spring manufacturer's website as people were uncertain whether the figures given for the drop in ride height were in reference to 2017 or 2018 models.

Alignment was then checked with toe adjusted. By the way, the front wheels can only adjust for toe as camber is strictly dependent on ride height. The rear wheels have camber adjustment but they are NOT independent of toe settings. I have to say that straight out of the factory, alignment settings were pretty much spot on. Here are the final numbers with the lowered ST/KW springs:

Front camber -0.88deg (slightly more than factory spec of -0.58deg, and that's for the 2017 models!).
Front caster +6.5deg (spot on).
Front toe 0.

Rear camber -2.16deg (factory spec of -1.5deg).
Rear toe +0.16deg toe in per side.
Total toe +0.33deg toe in.

................
This is good info, and they are definitely mild #'s, perfectly acceptable for street. Thanks.

rjp
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok some of you guys have PM'ed me and I can't reply your PMs cos forum rules dictate that I need more than 10 posts. Anyway, I'll just answer here. Most of it is directed @Chicago...

I've been racing and modifying cars for more than 10yrs. This is my experience... All dampers do wear out with time and mileage. In fact, most develop slight leaks after a few years without their owners even knowing, as they normally still retain some of their damping ability.

Having said that, as long as your car isn't lowered too much, you'll be fine. Just imagine if you regularly carry 3-4 people and drive around, it's the same. And since yours is a 2017 model (they raised the ride height from mid-2017 onwards), the actual drop with the ST/KW springs is even less.

What you'll gain is increased static camber, especially at the front. This gives better handling. In addition, the increase in spring rate also has additional handling benefits. The ST springs are rated about 7.4kg/mm for the fronts and the rears at 7.8kg/mm. I don't know what the stock spring rates are (I'm guessing about 5-6kg/mm) but they are way too soft. For comparison, the GTR's spring rates are 14kg/mm and 9kg/mm!! :surprise:

With the ST springs, there's less roll while cornering, and less dive when braking hard. It is still a very comfortable ride though, so no worries about that. The Sachs dampers are really good!

As for the last point where people ruin the handling of a car, that does happen when they go too far with lowering. The slammed look is definitely a no-no. In fact when racing, anything approaching a 2-inch drop in height from stock requires something called Roll Center Adjusters. Whereby a roll center adjuster will be installed on the lower control arms to correct the arm's angle as excessive suspension modifications can change the roll center and reduce the effectiveness of the camber curve.

Well, if I were you, I'd say go ahead and do it! One of the reasons why I didn't get the H&R springs was because it would have lowered the car by another 20mm. Even though I'm aware that H&R is actually used by Mercedes in their DTM race cars.

Well hope that helps. Cheers! :wink2:
 

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Outstanding info Meola, thanks for sharing!

So nice to read thoughtful discussion of meaningful performance modifications for the QV. Too often shouted down around here as mods=bad, without any discourse.

I'd like to know stock spring rates as well, though I believe your estimates based on your experience. Need a metric conversion though!

On a side note, my dream car was a GT-R for many years. Lately I've been weighing/favoring a Giulia QV instead. Any thoughts/comparisons of the two Meola?
 

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Ok some of you guys have PM'ed me and I can't reply your PMs cos forum rules dictate that I need more than 10 posts. Anyway, I'll just answer here. Most of it is directed @Chicago...

I've been racing and modifying cars for more than 10yrs. This is my experience... All dampers do wear out with time and mileage. In fact, most develop slight leaks after a few years without their owners even knowing, as they normally still retain some of their damping ability.

Having said that, as long as your car isn't lowered too much, you'll be fine. Just imagine if you regularly carry 3-4 people and drive around, it's the same. And since yours is a 2017 model (they raised the ride height from mid-2017 onwards), the actual drop with the ST/KW springs is even less.

What you'll gain is increased static camber, especially at the front. This gives better handling. In addition, the increase in spring rate also has additional handling benefits. The ST springs are rated about 7.4kg/mm for the fronts and the rears at 7.8kg/mm. I don't know what the stock spring rates are (I'm guessing about 5-6kg/mm) but they are way too soft. For comparison, the GTR's spring rates are 14kg/mm and 9kg/mm!! :surprise:

With the ST springs, there's less roll while cornering, and less dive when braking hard. It is still a very comfortable ride though, so no worries about that. The Sachs dampers are really good!

As for the last point where people ruin the handling of a car, that does happen when they go too far with lowering. The slammed look is definitely a no-no. In fact when racing, anything approaching a 2-inch drop in height from stock requires something called Roll Center Adjusters. Whereby a roll center adjuster will be installed on the lower control arms to correct the arm's angle as excessive suspension modifications can change the roll center and reduce the effectiveness of the camber curve.

Well, if I were you, I'd say go ahead and do it! One of the reasons why I didn't get the H&R springs was because it would have lowered the car by another 20mm. Even though I'm aware that H&R is actually used by Mercedes in their DTM race cars.

Well hope that helps. Cheers! :wink2:
This marks your tenth post :grin2: and the server should be allowing you to PM and post pictures and links now.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
This is good info, and they are definitely mild #'s, perfectly acceptable for street. Thanks.

rjp
Gotta love that stance with the ST lowering springs! :smile2:
 

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Ok some of you guys have PM'ed me and I can't reply your PMs cos forum rules dictate that I need more than 10 posts. Anyway, I'll just answer here. Most of it is directed @Chicago...

I've been racing and modifying cars for more than 10yrs. This is my experience... All dampers do wear out with time and mileage. In fact, most develop slight leaks after a few years without their owners even knowing, as they normally still retain some of their damping ability.

Having said that, as long as your car isn't lowered too much, you'll be fine. Just imagine if you regularly carry 3-4 people and drive around, it's the same. And since yours is a 2017 model (they raised the ride height from mid-2017 onwards), the actual drop with the ST/KW springs is even less.

What you'll gain is increased static camber, especially at the front. This gives better handling. In addition, the increase in spring rate also has additional handling benefits. The ST springs are rated about 7.4kg/mm for the fronts and the rears at 7.8kg/mm. I don't know what the stock spring rates are (I'm guessing about 5-6kg/mm) but they are way too soft. For comparison, the GTR's spring rates are 14kg/mm and 9kg/mm!! :surprise:

With the ST springs, there's less roll while cornering, and less dive when braking hard. It is still a very comfortable ride though, so no worries about that. The Sachs dampers are really good!

As for the last point where people ruin the handling of a car, that does happen when they go too far with lowering. The slammed look is definitely a no-no. In fact when racing, anything approaching a 2-inch drop in height from stock requires something called Roll Center Adjusters. Whereby a roll center adjuster will be installed on the lower control arms to correct the arm's angle as excessive suspension modifications can change the roll center and reduce the effectiveness of the camber curve.

Well, if I were you, I'd say go ahead and do it! One of the reasons why I didn't get the H&R springs was because it would have lowered the car by another 20mm. Even though I'm aware that H&R is actually used by Mercedes in their DTM race cars.

Well hope that helps. Cheers! :wink2:
According to "Auto Fanatic" on YouTube who claims to have contact with a ST engineer, the stock 2018 QV springs are front 183lb/in (3.27kg/mm) and rear 273lb/in (4.89kg/mm). The ST spring kit, p/n 282115042, is rated at front 399lb/in (7.12kg/mm) and the rears at 428 lb/in (7.64kg/mm). Hope this helps fill in some of the holes.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
According to "Auto Fanatic" on YouTube who claims to have contact with a ST engineer, the stock 2018 QV springs are front 183lb/in (3.27kg/mm) and rear 273lb/in (4.89kg/mm). The ST spring kit, p/n 282115042, is rated at front 399lb/in (7.12kg/mm) and the rears at 428 lb/in (7.64kg/mm). Hope this helps fill in some of the holes.
Hey, thanks for posting this. Wow, 3.27kg/mm and 4.89kg/mm are grossly inadequate for a car which weighs 1620kg!! (Assuming the spring rate figures are accurate.) Yes, I understand that no one wants a jarring ride but for a performance super salon which does a 7:32 lap at the Nordschleife, I suspect owners who, like me, tend to drive their car mainly in Dynamic and Race will have their dampers wearing out in around 20-30k miles.
 

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Here is mine on the ST Lowering Springs. I think these cars sit very well on the ST Springs and there isn't much difference in road compliance/comfort.
 

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I recently bought a Quad, an '18 and yes, my car sits a bit high on the stock suspension. But I had a very lowered GT3, and using it as a daily driver was often complicated by its very low stance. I had to get out my 2X4's and lay them down at the end at the end of my driveway to come and go. And I could not pull into some parking lots, and had to keep a wary eye on raised man hole covers, or dead animals or rubber chunks on the road. I loved the car, but had to be very alert when out and about, partially because of how low it was.

I no longer track my cars, nor drive at near my own limits on the back roads of South Carolina. I simply can't imagine lowering my New Quad more than it is now. Since I started driving my dad's '59 Anglia in high school I have always had one sort or another of a performance car, just about always more stiffly sprung than more mundane autos. But at my age I am happy with a more comfortable but nimble ride. My wife would not ride in my GT3 nor my prior 427 Cobra replica by Superformance. Too loud, the Porsche having a no-muffler race exhaust (with a glorious howl up the revs), the Cobra with open side pipes.

I really love my new Quad, and have no plans to change the suspension. Having ridden in Lotus Elans, and other softly spring cars, I have also found that a more supple suspension is often quicker on slightly bumpy road surfaces, not to mention less jarring. We recently sold my wife's Mini Countryman, the four door Mini, and when she drove on some roads, it was so bumpy I actually felt nauseated. Being on Chemo perhaps had something to do with that, though.

But the lower Alfa's sure to look good.

All the best.... NAM VET
 

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I'm not one of those who likes "slammed" cars...these two cars with the ST springs look great! I would like to see KW, or somebody make a front end lift option (for clearing obstacles) for the QF.
 

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2017 springs installed on my 2018 Quad. I finally got the springs on my quad and I have to say I'm happy. The difference is subtle, according to my mechanic 10mm right now. Obviously they should settle more over time though. Anecdotally there is a difference, there is a curb at work that my splitter used to clear and now it comes to the top of my splitter. The car feels more planted now in the curves it also doesn't feel like it's rolling over the sidewalls anymore either. Here are some before and after pictures. The first 2 are before.


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Checking the ST numbers and comparing with my Miata and 2018 Quad, the slope from the tire contact front to the lip is still higher than my Miata, which clears easily without ramps on my driveway. The Ferrari stil requires ramps because it's lower and the front overhangs are longer, typical of low sharp "frunk" exotics. This is promising but we still need to be aware of the outer bumper drop corners, along side the splitter. I have skid strips installed there nut I don't want to whack them every time. There is the tiny drop spoiler there too.
 
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I recently bought a Quad, an '18 and yes, my car sits a bit high on the stock suspension. But I had a very lowered GT3, and using it as a daily driver was often complicated by its very low stance. I had to get out my 2X4's and lay them down at the end at the end of my driveway to come and go. And I could not pull into some parking lots, and had to keep a wary eye on raised man hole covers, or dead animals or rubber chunks on the road. I loved the car, but had to be very alert when out and about, partially because of how low it was.

I no longer track my cars, nor drive at near my own limits on the back roads of South Carolina. I simply can't imagine lowering my New Quad more than it is now. Since I started driving my dad's '59 Anglia in high school I have always had one sort or another of a performance car, just about always more stiffly sprung than more mundane autos. But at my age I am happy with a more comfortable but nimble ride. My wife would not ride in my GT3 nor my prior 427 Cobra replica by Superformance. Too loud, the Porsche having a no-muffler race exhaust (with a glorious howl up the revs), the Cobra with open side pipes.

I really love my new Quad, and have no plans to change the suspension. Having ridden in Lotus Elans, and other softly spring cars, I have also found that a more supple suspension is often quicker on slightly bumpy road surfaces, not to mention less jarring. We recently sold my wife's Mini Countryman, the four door Mini, and when she drove on some roads, it was so bumpy I actually felt nauseated. Being on Chemo perhaps had something to do with that, though.

But the lower Alfa's sure to look good.

All the best.... NAM VET

I think you and I are are in a similar situation regarding age, and in my case neck and shoulder issues, so I can't handle harsh rides. I have a 2019 QV, and though I had read about the wheel gap issue I hadn't studied it until recently, and I don't know that I would trade ride quality--although they say it doesn't affect it much, it seems a 40% increase in spring tension would do something--for potential improvement in handling. The reduced wheel/fender gap does make the car look sleeker, especially in the white--I have the Alfa Red. I traded in 2017 Cadillac CTS-V because of torque converter vibration issues that had returned worse than before a year after the first fluid flush fix. I find the QV equally as comfortable as the Cadillac, and actually the sports seats are more comfortable than the Cadillac's Recaro, once I turned the headrests backwards to allow an upright head position. With the Cadillac CTS-V I had scraped the splitter, even though it wasn't a carbon fiber one, a few times from dips in parking lots, or entrance ramps, coming up to curb bolsters, before I learned to be more careful, and even so, it was more prone to that than my QV, although I must say that the QV does have a fairly aggressive parking assist warning, which is sort of difficult to gauge by the increasing frequency of tones, although it seems to err on the side of keeping you away from the curb.

Speaking of the Lotus Elan S4, I owned a new1968 one for a few years. Great car. And it did have a soft ride, even though you could feel the texture of the road. It only weighed 1420 pounds--no power steering required.
 
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