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Ignoring the 500hp+ requirement, since HP doesn't weigh anything.
Oh yes it does, well, not horsepower itself, but all the stuff you need to keep things from breaking with 500hp most certainly do add weight. That's why a Giulia's transmission weighs more than a Fiat 124s.

For this reason, my point is valid. If you compare weights of 500hp modern sedans, the Giulia looks pretty good.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #62 (Edited)
Ignoring the 500hp+ requirement, since HP doesn't weigh anything.
M3 and C63 both weigh less. There are a bunch that are heavier, sure... but the M3 and C63 show you can have a sports sedan weigh less, even with bigger/heavier motors.




Essentially. I'm not endorsing the idea, only trying to help with the logisitics of the idea.

Also, you can insure a gutted car, and an insurance company will cover a claim on a gutted car.



They have to meet the same regs with a FRS/BRZ, and it's 700-1000lbs lighter.


I may have misunderstood the topic -- it seemed to be about reducing the curb weight of the Giulia -- not about whether it's a good idea or not to reduce weight. If some lunatic wants to gut a Giulia, so be it, I'd be curious where the biggest weight loss would come from even if I don't want to perform the same modification.
I believe that you understood the topic very well. Let's discuss how to reduce the weight of the car and the cost and consequences of the modification.

It is not 100% clear to me how a BRZ is so much lighter than Giulia 2.0T. Giulia has somewhat more power, is larger and has more luxury features. Perhaps that is enough to account for 800 pounds?

Light weight wheels, rotors, and lugs still stand out as the most beneficial modifications. These not only reduce the total weight of the car, but also unsprung weight and rotating mass. These can be done "for cheap" or with a boat load of money, depending on how far you want to go. Here are the extreme points that I know:

Cheap:
Fastwheels FC04 17x8 cast aluminum: about $150/wheel, 17 pounds each (save 8 pounds/wheel, 32 pounds total).
Drill rotors: diy for almost nothing/wheel, 0.25 to 0.5 pounds each (save 1-2 pounds total).
Get a stud kit and use aluminum nuts: $50 total, save 1 pound total or less.
Downsides: perhaps not the strongest and most durable setup. Aluminum lug nuts are notoriously fragile and considered single use by many people.

Expensive:
ESE 19x9 CF wheels: about $3000/wheel, 11 pounds each (save 14 pounds/wheel, 56 pounds total)
Custom Aluminum hat rotors: about $2000/set (save 4 pounds each or 16 pounds total).
Titanium lug set: about $350 total (save about 2 pounds total)
Downsides: wow that is expensive. CF wheels may be fragile if struck, such as from road debris or a tire blow out.

Other discussed points that are perhaps more practical that gutting the interior:

Avoid heavy options when buying the car. HK audio and sunroof are expected to be particularly heavy, but I don't have numbers or meaningful estimates. Other options undoubtedly add weight too, but I expect these are the most noteworthy weight-wise.

Disable start-stop (need to figure out how to do this), install a light weight battery (replacing the start-stop capable battery with a high amperage, lower AH rating Optima battery saves 15 pounds for about $200).

Replace copper battery cable with aluminum. Should save about 5 pounds, assuming Giulia has copper cables. Tedious install.

Install Sparco seats intended for the QV. Costs about $5500. Should save a lot of weight, but I do not know how much. The costs both functionality and appearance since the Sparcos are black only.

Remove unused equipment. Stuff associated with the rear seat such as the center seatbelt can fall into this category. Of course, if you use this stuff, removing it is not the right plan.

Upgrade the sound system and be certain to select light weight speakers. Saves a few pounds, costs nothing if you were already going to upgrade the sound system components.

Install Fiam air horns. Costs 5 pounds, but clearing a path in front of you is priceless.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
Oh yes it does, well, not horsepower itself, but all the stuff you need to keep things from breaking with 500hp most certainly do add weight. That's why a Giulia's transmission weighs more than a Fiat 124s.

For this reason, my point is valid. If you compare weights of 500hp modern sedans, the Giulia looks pretty good.

Greg
There actually is a bit of a "snow ball" effect. More power requires stronger, heavier drive line components, but heavier drive line components require stronger, heavier support components like springs, shocks, and crash protection. But then you need more power to get to the performance goals, and it just keeps escalating.

AR has put more effort into controlling the weight of QV than the 2.0T (different priorities), so there are more opportunities to shave weight from the 2.0T. QV comes with light weight wheels (unless you pay $500 to get the heavy wheels?!?!), light weight rotors and even light weight tires, leaving not a lot of room for improvement there, for example.
 

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It is not 100% clear to me how a BRZ is so much lighter than Giulia 2.0T. Giulia has somewhat more power, is larger and has more luxury features. Perhaps that is enough to account for 800 pounds?
I imagine a lot of the weight in the Giulia comes from having leather and sound deadening materials everywhere. I imagine the chassis in the Giulia is much beefier than the FRS/BRZ as well -- which isn't something you're going to be able to reduce the weight of without tube frame work.

The Giulia feels and sounds significantly better built than the FRS/BRZ.

I'm really curious what the differences are between the 2.0T and the QV that makes the QV so **** heavier than the 2.0T.


Drill rotors: diy for almost nothing/wheel, 0.25 to 0.5 pounds each (save 1-2 pounds total).
Downside is, you lose braking performance.
 
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It is not 100% clear to me how a BRZ is so much lighter than Giulia 2.0T. Giulia has somewhat more power, is larger and has more luxury features. Perhaps that is enough to account for 800 pounds?
I imagine a lot of the weight in the Giulia comes from having leather and sound deadening materials everywhere. I imagine the chassis in the Giulia is much beefier than the FRS/BRZ as well -- which isn't something you're going to be able to reduce the weight of without tube frame work.

The Giulia feels and sounds significantly better built than the FRS/BRZ.
Don't forget four doors vs. two and a turbocharger with intercooler plus all the requisite plumbing.

Install Fiam air horns. Costs 5 pounds, but clearing a path in front of you is priceless.
Amen!

I'm really curious what the differences are between the 2.0T and the QV that makes the QV so **** heavier than the 2.0T.
I also wonder how differently it's distributed.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
I imagine a lot of the weight in the Giulia comes from having leather and sound deadening materials everywhere. I imagine the chassis in the Giulia is much beefier than the FRS/BRZ as well -- which isn't something you're going to be able to reduce the weight of without tube frame work.

The Giulia feels and sounds significantly better built than the FRS/BRZ.

I'm really curious what the differences are between the 2.0T and the QV that makes the QV so **** heavier than the 2.0T.

Downside is, you lose braking performance.
I have not driven a BRZ, it seems a bit "boy racer-ish" for my taste.

The suspension arms on a 3500 pound Giulia dwarf the (I think also aluminum) arms on my 7000 pound pick up truck. I guess AR was seriously aiming for rigidity. Messing with such components is not an activity for the amateur mechanic.

QV has a heavier engine, heavier transmission, heavier differential and more cooling components compared to 2.0T. I don't have comparison numbers though.

There is lots of controversy about drilled rotors. Many say that the performance is better, but strength is lost. I don't have any direct experience on the subject.
Note that the QV rotors are drilled while the smaller diameter 2.0T rotors are not. Also note that I am not talking about drilling the rotor until it looks like swiss cheese--which is just asking for trouble. Chamfering the holes is supposed to reduce the loss of strength, but is very difficult to do with "home shop" equipment. One performance rotor manufacturer cuts dimples into the surface of the rotor (essentially the chamfer without the hole), which is supposed to yield improved cooling without loosing any strength. The dimples don't remove significant weight though.
 

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...There is lots of controversy about drilled rotors. Many say that the performance is better, but strength is lost. I don't have any direct experience on the subject.
Note that the QV rotors are drilled while the smaller diameter 2.0T rotors are not. Also note that I am not talking about drilling the rotor until it looks like swiss cheese--which is just asking for trouble. Chamfering the holes is supposed to reduce the loss of strength, but is very difficult to do with "home shop" equipment. One performance rotor manufacturer cuts dimples into the surface of the rotor (essentially the chamfer without the hole), which is supposed to yield improved cooling without loosing any strength. The dimples don't remove significant weight though.
Drilling holes is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Racers do it for cooling mostly, but then they think of rotors as part of the consumables along with brake pads and tires. One of the problems with drilling, are that you have to precisely drill exactly the same holes, the exact same distance from the edge, directly across the width of the rotor to make sure you don't unbalance the rotor. You have to make sure the distance between holes is exactly the same so you don't create heat zones. I've seen the stress cracks around holes from cars out on the track. On the track, lap after lap you'll see the rotors glow cherry red from heat build-up. The difference in heat between the surface, the holes and the edge of the holes often creates stress cracks. Chamfering the edge of the holes helps, but again you have to precisely remove the exact same amounts on every hole, which means a bench drill press and precision drilling. You need to be able to test the balance of the rotor afterwards. That kind of effort is worth it to track guys, because they replace their rotors often. On the street it's a waste, as you'll never get the brakes hot enough for it to matter.

I have slotted and drilled 2-piece rotors on my Camaro from Racing Brake but they were several thousand for a complete 4-wheel set. They do make a difference not only because they dissipate heat better, but they're several pounds lighter than the stock rotors. That was mainly for track use. The benefit on the street is the weight reduction from being 2-piece with a light-weight hat, not the slots and holes.

I guess it depends on what your purpose was for buying a Giulia in the first place. I didn't buy it for a track car, or high-performance cornering. I bought it to be a beautiful, stylish, comfortable, elegant sedan that just happens to have precise handling and performance. The handling and performance I'll use once in awhile; the other qualities I'll use every time I'm in it.
 

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Now I'm really confused....

The Quad is heavier than the 2.0 Giulia ???? How can that be ???? With all the weight savings implemented in the design of the Quad, how can it be heavier ? Carbon Fiber Hood, Roof, etc.....I realize the engine is probably heavier but is that statement correct ??
 

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The Quad is heavier than the 2.0 Giulia ???? How can that be ???? With all the weight savings implemented in the design of the Quad, how can it be heavier ? Carbon Fiber Hood, Roof, etc.....I realize the engine is probably heavier but is that statement correct ??
Well of course, when you have 500 HP just about everything in drivetrain is beefier, transmisson, differential, brakes are so much bigger that even lighter materials still leave them heavier,larger coolers and more of them, et cetera, et cetera, carbon is there to offset some of that but....
 

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Discussion Starter #70
Drilling holes is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Racers do it for cooling mostly, but then they think of rotors as part of the consumables along with brake pads and tires. One of the problems with drilling, are that you have to precisely drill exactly the same holes, the exact same distance from the edge, directly across the width of the rotor to make sure you don't unbalance the rotor. You have to make sure the distance between holes is exactly the same so you don't create heat zones. I've seen the stress cracks around holes from cars out on the track. On the track, lap after lap you'll see the rotors glow cherry red from heat build-up. The difference in heat between the surface, the holes and the edge of the holes often creates stress cracks. Chamfering the edge of the holes helps, but again you have to precisely remove the exact same amounts on every hole, which means a bench drill press and precision drilling. You need to be able to test the balance of the rotor afterwards. That kind of effort is worth it to track guys, because they replace their rotors often. On the street it's a waste, as you'll never get the brakes hot enough for it to matter.

I have slotted and drilled 2-piece rotors on my Camaro from Racing Brake but they were several thousand for a complete 4-wheel set. They do make a difference not only because they dissipate heat better, but they're several pounds lighter than the stock rotors. That was mainly for track use. The benefit on the street is the weight reduction from being 2-piece with a light-weight hat, not the slots and holes.

I guess it depends on what your purpose was for buying a Giulia in the first place. I didn't buy it for a track car, or high-performance cornering. I bought it to be a beautiful, stylish, comfortable, elegant sedan that just happens to have precise handling and performance. The handling and performance I'll use once in awhile; the other qualities I'll use every time I'm in it.
To properly drill a rotor you need a rotary table and a proper machine shop drill press (old school approach) or a CNC milling machine (modern approach). My 114 year old lathe has a rotary table, but I'm not sure that it is up to the task. I only recommend a professionally drilled rotors. The rotor manufacturer can align the holes and/or slots with the gaps between the vanes inside of the rotor, while the amateur machinist cannot.

Also, I did order a Giulia for high performance cornering. I suspect that a lot of Giulia buyers have done likewise, although maybe I am wrong. Don't bother mucking through this thread if you think the stock performance of Giulia 2.0T is adequate. My summer mountain pass route takes me from 6700 up to 9600 foot elevation over about 15 miles in 20% + grade steps then back down the other side with a similar layout. There are other very curvy sections to navigate as well, but not nearly as steep. I drive this twice a week. There are lots of blind hills and curves as well as sharp curves, long sweepers, etc etc. I currently engine brake a lot to avoid overheating the brakes, but engine braking means starting the deceleration far back from the curves and loosing time. Better brakes that are more resistant to overheating seems to be the solution to me.

Since the QV rotors are drilled I presume that AR believes that there is a real benefit for doing so.

Here is a video of the start of the road, from just past the turn off to Kennedy Meadows to the end of Dead Man Creek (where the lips go flying). It is a 20% grade traverse of a cliff, none of it straight, narrow lanes, no K rails (OK, the year after they filmed this they added one section of K rail where the road collapsed down the cliff and had to be reconstructed). I watched them film it, of course sans cartoon characters. They seem to have edited the ad from the original, perhaps to make the road less "scary".
 

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There are a **** of a lot of passes in Europe between Switzerland and Italy that would make your epic drive in California look like walk in a park...ever wondered why the other Giulia is called Stelvio? Giulia will do just great except for the extreme snow you get.....I used to ride those Alpine passes on my motorcycle growing up in Slovenia...went to buy a carton of cigs on Ljubelj pass and came home a week later via Austria, Italy and Switzerland without any money left, covered probably 50000 feet of elevation lol...intoxicating...kind of envy you your proximity to those great mountain roads
 

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...Also, I did order a Giulia for high performance cornering. I suspect that a lot of Giulia buyers have done likewise, although maybe I am wrong. Don't bother mucking through this thread if you think the stock performance of Giulia 2.0T is adequate. My summer mountain pass route takes me from 6700 up to 9600 foot elevation over about 15 miles in 20% + grade steps then back down the other side with a similar layout. There are other very curvy sections to navigate as well, but not nearly as steep. I drive this twice a week. There are lots of blind hills and curves as well as sharp curves, long sweepers, etc etc. I currently engine brake a lot to avoid overheating the brakes, but engine braking means starting the deceleration far back from the curves and loosing time. Better brakes that are more resistant to overheating seems to be the solution to me.

Since the QV rotors are drilled I presume that AR believes that there is a real benefit for doing so...
Yes. Dealing with the heat generated by stopping a car that can go up to 190 mph.

Your purpose and needs are quite different from mine. I'm not sure which Giulia you have on order, but if it's the Quad, get the CC brakes. If it's not the Quad, try and get the CC brakes anyways, and go with lighter wider wheels. The Quad has the dynamic aero so you'd be good there. If it's not the Quad, get the AWD sport model and the Performance Package which has the active suspension and limited slip differential. That would give you the best handling combo.

As far as taking out weight, I'd say try it with the lighter CC brakes and wheels, and see how it performs. It just might fit the bill without having to do anything further. It doesn't sound like it would be safe to push the car beyond that level of performance in your situation anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
There are a **** of a lot of passes in Europe between Switzerland and Italy that would make your epic drive in California look like walk in a park...ever wondered why the other Giulia is called Stelvio? Giulia will do just great except for the extreme snow you get.....I used to ride those Alpine passes on my motorcycle growing up in Slovenia...went to buy a carton of cigs on Ljubelj pass and came home a week later via Austria, Italy and Switzerland without any money left, covered probably 50000 feet of elevation lol...intoxicating...kind of envy you your proximity to those great mountain roads
It's not a competition, just a statement regarding motivations :wink2:

Due to the way that the mountains have eroded over millions of years, California has a small number of roads over passes in the Sierra Nevada and all of them run east-west. Basically there are (north to south): SR-70, I-80, US-50, SR-88, SR-4, SR-108, and SR-120. I-80, US-50, SR-88 and SR-120 have a lot of traffic, making them difficult for spirited driving and relatively straight. SR-108 was the first to be traversed by "immigrants" (Bartelson-Bidwell) and is the one I take. The infamous Donner party took what is now I-80 several years after Bartelson-Bidwell. I haven't driven SR-70. There is also N-S oriented SR-49, which is very popular with tourists; perhaps better for sight-seeing than aggressive driving. I believe that within the lower 48, Colorado is the state for mountain highway enjoyment; the road to Pikes Peak exceeds 14,000 feet.

The oldest mountain pass "road" in the California Sierra range is literally a donkey trail that runs between Fresno and Mammoth Lakes (natives used this trail for thousands of years). You can rent a mule or horse and/or get a guided tour to take the trail from the lessee of my pasture (Rock Creek Pack Station); nothing like catered meals in the wilderness.

It was my understanding that a lot of the mountain pass roads in the Alps follow Roman era roads and are very curvy but not very steep. An ox drawn wagon with a wood block rubbing an iron tire for a brake can only handle about 6% grade. Like Mt Hamilton Road in Santa Clara that was built with a similar constraint, there are lots of switchbacks in order to limit the grade of the road. That said, I have never had a chance to drive a car or ride a motorcycle in the Alps. In Santa Clara the really curvy road is Calaveras road. This is the alternate when the freeway gets too bad. The speed limit sign says trucks should not exceed 25 MPH (I expect they can't get above 5MPH). The last time I drove it I managed to get my Protege up to 30MPH once or twice, tires squealing just about continuously; hardly any traffic :grin2: There are no straight sections. I'll have to try it out when I get my Giulia.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Yes. Dealing with the heat generated by stopping a car that can go up to 190 mph.

Your purpose and needs are quite different from mine. I'm not sure which Giulia you have on order, but if it's the Quad, get the CC brakes. If it's not the Quad, try and get the CC brakes anyways, and go with lighter wider wheels. The Quad has the dynamic aero so you'd be good there. If it's not the Quad, get the AWD sport model and the Performance Package which has the active suspension and limited slip differential. That would give you the best handling combo.

As far as taking out weight, I'd say try it with the lighter CC brakes and wheels, and see how it performs. It just might fit the bill without having to do anything further. It doesn't sound like it would be safe to push the car beyond that level of performance in your situation anyways.
Well, if you read through this sometimes argumentative thread you will see that many people advised me to get a QV and I objected because it does not meet my requirements: AWD, some ground clearance, good fuel economy, and not teasing me into getting a speeding ticket every time I go for a drive.

I have a Q4 Ti Sport everything with all options except HK and sunroof on order. Bianco Trofeo, red interior and red calipers. This is still a low slung car, but it is about 2 inches higher than a QV. CCM rotors are not an available option on 2.0T models and after market upgrade is both incredibly expensive (more than CF wheels, for example) and run the risk of upsetting the ESC/traction control systems. CCM rotors are larger diameter and thicker than cast iron, requiring different calipers, brackets and on and on. A big plus to aluminum hat rotors is that they are a direct replacement for the stock rotors; just lighter. The Tecnico 19" wheels that are standard on QV (19.25 pounds/front and 20.25 pounds/rear) are not available as original equipment for my car either. The light weight tires are both not available as original equipment and non-functional for me, as mountain passes get too cold even in the summer for Pirelli P-zero Corsas. It SNOWED 9/21/17; the earliest snow anyone can remember.

I intend to run Michelin PS A/S 3+ tires for summer use, unless something better comes along first. These are still a couple of pounds lighter than the stock Pirelli all-season RFT tires and rated for much better traction. The P-zero Corsas are another 5 pounds lighter each, but they don't work for me. In addition, after factoring in the very short tread life P-zero Corsas are very expensive; even the track-monster guys object to the cost. IIRC Call me Al managed to shred his in only 2000 miles, costing almost $1/mile just for tires.
 

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Well, if you read through this sometimes argumentative thread you will see that many people advised me to get a QV and I objected because it does not meet my requirements: AWD, some ground clearance, good fuel economy, and not teasing me into getting a speeding ticket every time I go for a drive.

I have a Q4 Ti Sport everything with all options except HK and sunroof on order. Bianco Trofeo, red interior and red calipers. This is still a low slung car, but it is about 2 inches higher than a QV. CCM rotors are not an available option on 2.0T models and after market upgrade is both incredibly expensive (more than CF wheels, for example) and run the risk of upsetting the ESC/traction control systems. CCM rotors are larger diameter and thicker than cast iron, requiring different calipers, brackets and on and on. A big plus to aluminum hat rotors is that they are a direct replacement for the stock rotors; just lighter. The Tecnico 19" wheels that are standard on QV (19.25 pounds/front and 20.25 pounds/rear) are not available as original equipment for my car either. The light weight tires are both not available as original equipment and non-functional for me, as mountain passes get too cold even in the summer for Pirelli P-zero Corsas. It SNOWED 9/21/17; the earliest snow anyone can remember.

I intend to run Michelin PS A/S 3+ tires for summer use, unless something better comes along first. These are still a couple of pounds lighter than the stock Pirelli all-season RFT tires and rated for much better traction. The P-zero Corsas are another 5 pounds lighter each, but they don't work for me. In addition, after factoring in the very short tread life P-zero Corsas are very expensive; even the track-monster guys object to the cost. IIRC Call me Al managed to shred his in only 2000 miles, costing almost $1/mile just for tires.
Do you have a source for aluminum hat 2-piece rotors that are an OEM replacement? Even if you stick with the stock brakes, I'd recommend at the very least you upgrade the brake fluid to a DOT4 grade; Motul RBF 600 is pretty popular with the weekend track crowd. You might cook your factory brakes, but you won't lose pedal pressure. Another good idea is to replace the brake lines at the wheels with stainless steel lines. The may weigh a little more than the rubber ones, but they won't expand with heat which can cause mushy braking.

The P-Zeros are for track guys that consider a set of tires a weekend consumable. Your choice of Michelin's is probably the best for your application, unless you want to have just a summer set of wheels and tires.
 

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There are a **** of a lot of passes in Europe between Switzerland and Italy that would make your epic drive in California look like walk in a park...ever wondered why the other Giulia is called Stelvio? Giulia will do just great except for the extreme snow you get.....I used to ride those Alpine passes on my motorcycle growing up in Slovenia...went to buy a carton of cigs on Ljubelj pass and came home a week later via Austria, Italy and Switzerland without any money left, covered probably 50000 feet of elevation lol...intoxicating...kind of envy you your proximity to those great mountain roads
I was in Switzerland in August and did all my climbs and descents on trains (some of them cog). More a matter of convenience than self-preservation, though I can see how overexuberance might be punished.
 

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Yup, did cog trains too, Pilatus, Wengen, Jungfraujoch....freaking crazy Swiss, if you ever find yourself with good car on way towards Italy make sure you skip tunnels and head straight for old pass roads
 

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There is lots of controversy about drilled rotors. Many say that the performance is better, but strength is lost. I don't have any direct experience on the subject.
From a purely weight savings aspect, a drilled rotor is better.

From a braking performance aspect, a slotted or full disc is better. More material = better heat dissipation = less brake fade. This is why you rarely see drilled rotors on proper race cars, as having better braking performance is generally better than being to out accelerate another car by a marginal amount, unless you're at a point where you are overpowering your tires with your brakes and you can reduce some weight for the slight gain in acceleration.

Also, the QV rotors are drilled because a lot of high-end cars come with drilled rotors for the looks of it -- Drilled rotors look better than slotted/blank rotors. Remember, Alfa still has to sell cars.


Regarding carbon ceramics, those arrive and drive super car places oftentimes replace the CCBs with blank/slotted rotors -- largely due to cost. They had a brake pad for a 430 Scuderia laying around, along with a brake rotor -- the rotor was lighter than one of the brake pads.



IIRC Call me Al managed to shred his in only 2000 miles, costing almost $1/mile just for tires.
He was also overdriving the car and tires, causing accelerated wear. A smoother driver would have had the tires last a little longer. But, to his defense, 60tw tires aren't known for having a long life.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Yup, did cog trains too, Pilatus, Wengen, Jungfraujoch....freaking crazy Swiss, if you ever find yourself with good car on way towards Italy make sure you skip tunnels and head straight for old pass roads
I've taken the cog train to Zermatt. There was a paved road with cars on it on the opposite side of the canyon in at least one place. It appeared to be single lane, two way traffic, with lots of waiting in line for the opposite direction traffic to clear. Not obviously a fun drive.
 

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Like everywhere else in Europe you have to pick and chose your roads to have fun, Zermatt is a dead end high level turist trap so of course traffic is ridiculous....some passes can also be ridiculous but advantage goes to those with tunnels beneath them, they swallow most of traffic while the pass road is not to crowded...in general as soon as vacation time subsides (september or so) roads in Alps are a blast....
 
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