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I live in the oil refining capitol of the US, Texas. I don’t think the gas get fresher than here. With the first engine I put exclusively Shell 93 in it. With the second engine I have tried the 93 from Chevron and Exxon as well. Never anything less than 93.
 

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Unless they did something really dumb like turn off the knock sensors the answer is just as long as running 93.
Then its not a fuel issue by any chance? Genuinely asking I really do not know.

You could run E-85 and I ask the same question. Where do you want to go with this?
With E-85 on a 93 tune... not super far. Further than you would get though running 93 in a E-85 tune.
 

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What are we looking at?
Looks like a little bit of extremely fine metal shavings in the oil filter well and as for the filter I am not sure as it doesn't look like there's any metal there.

I think metal in an engine is overrated, big chunks are bad but super super fine I would consider normal. When you drain the oil pan on a new engine there's always some super fines on the bottom, if there's shavings now that's a real problem. You have to think about the size of the particles in microns and the filter ability to filter those particles and news flash, no filter is 100%. Personally, I would pull the oil pan and look there.
 

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  • year model: 2018 giulia QV
  • mileage: 63,000
  • gas used 93 octane shell or 100 octane Sunoco 260gt on a weekly basis.
  • oil used 0-40 pennzoil every 3k miles.
  • tune/mods. Where to begin? Tuned and 200cel HFC from fabspeed from 2,000 miles to about 30,000 miles. Then retuned by idealrace with same 200 cel hfc from 30,000-63,000 miles. In process Now hybrid turbos, catless, flex fuel tune, tial BOV, WMI, full4” titanium inlets with spray ports, trans tune.
  • Zero issues. In fact after pulling engine for first turbo install (3 total) we were going to walnut blast engine. There was virtually no carbon buildup so skipped it.
    i change oil every 3k miles. No matter what handbook says or whatever synthetic fans say about oil lasting 10k miles. I drive it hard and I change it. I think my luck and success has been the 100 octane regular fill ups and the daily occurrence of over 100mph. Italian tune ups work in my case. Car has been great. The aftermarket is the problem.
 

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2018 Vulcano Black Giulia Quadrifoglio
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  • year model: 2018 giulia QV
  • mileage: 63,000
  • gas used 93 octane shell or 100 octane Sunoco 260gt on a weekly basis.
  • oil used 0-40 pennzoil every 3k miles.
  • tune/mods. Where to begin? Tuned and 200cel HFC from fabspeed from 2,000 miles to about 30,000 miles. Then retuned by idealrace with same 200 cel hfc from 30,000-63,000 miles. In process Now hybrid turbos, catless, flex fuel tune, tial BOV, WMI, full4” titanium inlets with spray ports, trans tune.
  • Zero issues. In fact after pulling engine for first turbo install (3 total) we were going to walnut blast engine. There was virtually no carbon buildup so skipped it.
    i change oil every 3k miles. No matter what handbook says or whatever synthetic fans say about oil lasting 10k miles. I drive it hard and I change it. I think my luck and success has been the 100 octane regular fill ups and the daily occurrence of over 100mph. Italian tune ups work in my case. Car has been great. The aftermarket is the problem.
Which tune did you top the dragy charts with, FS or IR?
 

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I work for FCA dealer all Mopar cars have slight knock on start up especially if not started for few days. Its very recomended to use only correct oil and MOPAR filter as they have higher flow then other filters.
 

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Yes, metal in the oil. Some metals are fine but not at this rate. This is a large amount seen by the naked eye. They need to replace it, I am ok with it. In the process.
Hope all goes well and it will be a success. For my education, 1) is it the rattling that you are hearing consequence of that amount of metal that you are seeing in the oil filter?. 2) do you have pictures of an oil filter from a QV engine that can be considered normal?. It would be great to compare both.
 

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2019 Giulia Ti Q2, Performance Pack
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Just for the record, I am not saying it is or is not. I am presenting this info for discussion which is working. ;) I find the theory interesting and I also find it interesting that Squadra Tuning has eliminated this function in the tune.

I also think it is fuel and oil quality. 91 Octane I feel is not enough and the quality varies like crazy. I would not touch Mopar oil whether it is penzzoil/Shell product.

My thinking is low quality Fuel and Oil combo.

Here is a run I logged with my 2.0L on Chevron 91 from a busy station. Fairly optimal conditions but the car still retarded

In the graph below I drew the red line of how it should have been. But because of bad fuel the ignition is retarded.



View attachment 113590


Outside temp was about 62˚F. 430 Ft above sea level, 60% humidity

See bottom line. This was roughly what time I did the run.

I will add 100 octane today. Do some more runs.

Date

(PST)
Temp

(F)
Dew
Point
(F)
Relative
Humidity
(%)
Wind
Direction
Wind
Speed
(MPH)
Visibility

(miles)
WeatherCloudsStation
Pressure
(inches)
Sea Level
Pressure
(mb)
Altimeter
Setting
(inches)
1 Hour
Precip
(inches)
3 Hour
Precip
(inches)
6 Hour
Precip
(inches)
24 Hour
Precip
(inches)
6 Hr
Max
(F)
6 Hr
Min
(F)
24 Hr
Max
(F)
24 Hr
Min
(F)
18 Feb 8:53 am​
60​
22​
23​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.94​
1025.9​
30.30​
18 Feb 7:53 am​
54​
23​
30​
N​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.92​
1025.3​
30.28​
18 Feb 6:53 am​
49​
24​
37​
NE​
6​
10.00​
CLR​
29.88​
1023.9​
30.24​
18 Feb 5:53 am​
47​
29​
49​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.86​
1023.1​
30.22​
18 Feb 4:53 am​
47​
36​
65​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.83​
1022.1​
30.19​
18 Feb 3:53 am​
49​
40​
71​
ENE​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.81​
1021.5​
30.17​
52​
46​
18 Feb 2:53 am​
48​
40​
73​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.80​
1021.3​
30.16​
18 Feb 1:53 am​
51​
41​
68​
ENE​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.79​
1020.8​
30.15​
18 Feb 12:53 am​
50​
43​
77​
ENE​
7​
10.00​
CLR​
29.77​
1020.2​
30.13​
17 Feb 11:53 pm​
50​
43​
77​
NE​
5​
9.00​
CLR​
29.75​
1019.7​
30.11​
63​
48​
17 Feb 10:53 pm​
51​
42​
71​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.74​
1019.3​
30.10​
17 Feb 9:53 pm​
52​
42​
69​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.74​
1018.8​
30.09​
59​
52​
17 Feb 8:53 pm​
53​
41​
63​
ESE​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.72​
1018.3​
30.07​
17 Feb 7:53 pm​
54​
42​
64​
SSE​
5​
10.00​
CLR​
29.71​
1017.8​
30.06​
17 Feb 6:53 pm​
56​
40​
55​
N​
CALM​
10.00​
CLR​
29.67​
1016.6​
30.02​
17 Feb 5:53 pm​
57​
41​
55​
3​
10.00​
CLR​
29.66​
1016.3​
30.01​
17 Feb 4:53 pm​
58​
45​
62​
5​
10.00​
CLR​
29.64​
1015.5​
29.99​
17 Feb 3:53 pm​
59​
48​
67​
6​
9.00​
CLR​
29.63​
1015.1​
29.98​
63​
58​
17 Feb 2:53 pm​
59​
47​
64​
W​
8​
10.00​
CLR​
29.62​
1014.9​
29.97​
17 Feb 1:53 pm​
60​
46​
60​
W​
9​
10.00​
CLR​
29.61​
1014.5​
29.96​
Did you run the 100 octane logs and compare?

I think youll find the results similar.

In your log you are assuming that's timing retard by drawing a line across the peaks.

Thats not how it works.

Theres knock retard and theres timing advance.

You never logged knock retard per cylinder. That's what you absolutely must log to know if the timing is knk retarding. You might be on 91 octane but as an fyi ive never seen a single degree of it in 93 even in 100 degree heat track days. My timing advance looks like yours.

Timing advance itself relies on a multide of 2d and 3d maps from battery voltage to air temp to coolant temp to boost and throttle position etc etc etc.

Thats the 2.0l though and we're seeing practically zero engine failures on the forums despite the 2.0l likely selling 10:1 vs the qv.

.....

The 2.9l is interesting.

We only have very little information about running issues:

1. Cold start misfiring is prevelant.

2. Excessive carbon build up can occur in as little as 5 to 10k miles. This is abnormal for any moden di engine. There are tons of di engines that dont use port injection that largely mitigate carbon buildup issues.

3. Metal shavings are being found in the oil which can be anything from bottom end bearings to cylinder walls to rings to cam and timing area. This is an unknown but clearly the issue that needs to be explored.

Any of the above issues may or may not be related to each other.


Anecdotal things we know that may or may not be if relevance...

1. Alfa changed from a 0w40 oil to a 5w40 oil in 2019? Why? Upwards of 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup so why change to an oil that has LESS lubricity at cold start? Looks like they went with the new fiat spec of gh2 vs the old z2 which means now they spec oils with a noack limit of 10 percent. This makes more sense now they had to shift to a 5w40 as its much easier to find a 5w40 with lower noack percentage (noack is the oil burnoff ir evaporation loss). So clearly alfa is concerned about controlling carbon buildup to sacrifice cold start lubrication in favor of oils with less evaporation loss which contributes to carbon buildup. But could this be causing more cold start wear than was ever tested in the original engine development? Your guess is as good as mine.

2. The cylinder deactivation mode deactivates the same cylinder bank at all times. It never swaps banks. Is this an issue?

3. The cars can show low fuel pressure at the track under high g and low tank but most people don't track their cars and many engines that failed were not tracked. Theres no evidence of limp modes with lean codes being prevelant but who knows.

4. Alfa went dual injection on 2020+ cars.


Right now we have more questions than answers unfortunately. The failure mode could end up being something none of us even know to consider.
 

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If this data may suggest anything, in July 2020, they changed the oil/filter in my 2019 QV at 365 days old and used 0W40 as the new oil. I had a handful of CELs in rough cold starts from Jul20 to Jul21 all OBD2 codes related to misfires in cyl's #1, #2 and #3 and a couple with electronic throttle service needed. This time, after I asked them to please follow the Owners' Manual reco, they changed the oil/filter, early this month (July 2021) at 363 days old and used 5W40 as the new oil. So far, no CELs in rough cold starts. It is also true that they sprayed-in a couple of Mopar Carbon Chamber Cleaner cans via the intakes ports. These two things are different for me from Jul20 to Jul21 and from Jul21 on.
 

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Did you run the 100 octane logs and compare?

I think youll find the results similar.

In your log you are assuming that's timing retard by drawing a line across the peaks.

Thats not how it works.

Theres knock retard and theres timing advance.

You never logged knock retard per cylinder. That's what you absolutely must log to know if the timing is knk retarding. You might be on 91 octane but as an fyi ive never seen a single degree of it in 93 even in 100 degree heat track days. My timing advance looks like yours.

Timing advance itself relies on a multide of 2d and 3d maps from battery voltage to air temp to coolant temp to boost and throttle position etc etc etc.

Thats the 2.0l though and we're seeing practically zero engine failures on the forums despite the 2.0l likely selling 10:1 vs the qv.

.....

The 2.9l is interesting.

We only have very little information about running issues:

1. Cold start misfiring is prevelant.

2. Excessive carbon build up can occur in as little as 5 to 10k miles. This is abnormal for any moden di engine. There are tons of di engines that dont use port injection that largely mitigate carbon buildup issues.

3. Metal shavings are being found in the oil which can be anything from bottom end bearings to cylinder walls to rings to cam and timing area. This is an unknown but clearly the issue that needs to be explored.

Any of the above issues may or may not be related to each other.


Anecdotal things we know that may or may not be if relevance...

1. Alfa changed from a 0w40 oil to a 5w40 oil in 2019? Why? Upwards of 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup so why change to an oil that has LESS lubricity at cold start? Were they be seeing oil pressure issues? No idea but why?

2. The cylinder deactivation mode deactivates the same cylinder bank at all times. It never swaps banks. Is this an issue?

3. The cars can show low fuel pressure bat the track under high g and low tank but most people dint track their cars and many engines that failed were not tracked. Theres no evidence of limp modes with lean codes being prevelant but who knows.

4. Alfa went dual injection on 2020+ cars.


Right now we have more questions than answers unfortunately. The failure mode could end up being something none of us even know to consider.

I never had time to log on 100 octane before I sold the car. Not much time in my days anymore.
Did you run the 100 octane logs and compare?

I think youll find the results similar.

In your log you are assuming that's timing retard by drawing a line across the peaks.

Thats not how it works.

Theres knock retard and theres timing advance.

You never logged knock retard per cylinder. That's what you absolutely must log to know if the timing is knk retarding. You might be on 91 octane but as an fyi ive never seen a single degree of it in 93 even in 100 degree heat track days. My timing advance looks like yours.

Timing advance itself relies on a multide of 2d and 3d maps from battery voltage to air temp to coolant temp to boost and throttle position etc etc etc.

Thats the 2.0l though and we're seeing practically zero engine failures on the forums despite the 2.0l likely selling 10:1 vs the qv.
I logged what Squadra requested me to log. This was the result and the line drawn was by Squadra showing me that the line should have been smooth not jagged which is due to bad fuel (spark retard).

My point of this was not about logging or running 100 octane although it would have most likely smoothed the curve but this is more about showing fuel quality/Low octane may be an issue more specifically 91 octane. I obtained the fuel from a very busy, clean and new Chevron station. (This is with the Squadra tune) This can also happen with circumstances like very high intake temp and high engine temp as well but that was not the case in my logged runs.

"Octane 91 can be compared to our RON95. Which is also bad over here in EU. I always use RON98 octane 93.
In Germany RON100 and 102 is available. 2 weeks ago I bought RON102 in Germany. I got noticable higher power on the Performance Logger. Igntion timing was also better.

Overhere we have a lot "budget" fuels. Those are even worse because it contains less adaptives (additives). Adaptives improves the fuel quality." -ST

113943
 
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