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Pogea Racing Alfa Giulia QV Tune. 604Hp!!
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More boost. More flow. More go! It should not be very long till the stateside tuners start to release their own Stage 1 tunes.
Not doing anything to mine any time soon. There is a bit of a learning curve attached to learning to drive the original 505HP to its potential. I'm happy where it's at for the time being.
Not doing anything to mine any time soon. There is a bit of a learning curve attached to learning to drive the original 505HP to its potential. I'm happy where it's at for the time being.
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576 Posts
With an Italian car, reliability is a crap shoot to begin with, but adding 100Hp is no joke. Have to see some customer/magazine reviews, I guess.
If they can get the full open exhaust in Dynamic Mode with the horsepower bump, I'd consider it.
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This is really the reason why FI scares me
Everyone's answer to more power is just to turn up the boost!
I wonder if these guys ever go over the internals to see what kind of stress they can take before grenading just like those other guys that were mentioned.
Everyone's answer to more power is just to turn up the boost!
I wonder if these guys ever go over the internals to see what kind of stress they can take before grenading just like those other guys that were mentioned.
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Word to the wise.. never do a mail-order tune and especially on a forced induction car.
There is no way the tuner can account for all of the electronic variable and measurable changes that can exist from car to car. On turbo cars, the number one calibration consideration is the ECU's control of the wastegate turbo actuators through duty-cycle driven solenoids. Those solenoids and their overall sensitivity and calibration definitely does vary from car to car.
Aftermarket tuning companies that have the ability to work with you to remotely log your car prior to issuing a tune is a better option.
Though, the best option is to have the car tuned in real-time on a dyno with the tuner present.
Anyhow, 2 cents of basically free advice.
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[email protected]
I'm old enough to remember when getting a tune meant actually buying a "chip" removing your old one and then plugging in the new one..
everybody thought they were getting more HP when in reality with N/A cars what you most likely got was the rev limiter removed and maybe better throttle response...and that's about it...now with anything FI the game is different...dialing up the boost means many gains and many potential issues....
that's why i agree with Eric.
better to have a hands on approach as opposed to mail order..
when I had DINAN goodies done to my car they actually send an engineer to the dealership to tune the car once all the hardware was installed on the motor...
I'm old enough to remember when getting a tune meant actually buying a "chip" removing your old one and then plugging in the new one..
everybody thought they were getting more HP when in reality with N/A cars what you most likely got was the rev limiter removed and maybe better throttle response...and that's about it...now with anything FI the game is different...dialing up the boost means many gains and many potential issues....
that's why i agree with Eric.
better to have a hands on approach as opposed to mail order..
when I had DINAN goodies done to my car they actually send an engineer to the dealership to tune the car once all the hardware was installed on the motor...
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Hi Eric,
Not long ago you would have been 100% correct. However there have been some recent developments that really make this issue a thing of the past, at least as far as the newer Alfa Romeos are concerned.
The modern Alfas do indeed have duty-cycle driven solenoids, and they do vary from car to car. However the new ECU's have a learning procedure and both long term and short term trim adjustments to dial in exactly the amount of boost the ECU commands regardless of the component variables. In other words, after a reflash, the ECU will start off with low trim values and monitor the boost. It will then trim it up via the solenoid duty-cycles until it sees it's target value on the various boost sensors. If it goes too high it will trim down. This is a very safe and reliable system, and as far as I know all the new Fiats and Alfa Romeos are set up this way. The only downside is that after a change in your ECU tune, or certain other components the ECU will need to "relearn" its trim settings, which can take about 1/2 a tank of gasoline worth of driving.
This is my first post here, and I realize that what I am saying may be new to a lot of folks. Please keep in mind that this is based on actual experience. At my company we tune the ECUs for most of the new Alfas and Fiats, and we have been offering tuning solutions for the older cars for a long time.
Greg Gordon
www.eurocompulsion.net
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Hello Greg, welcome to the Giulia forum.
Fuel/timing trims and boost PID open/closed loop technology and wide-band 02 feedback has been incorporated into OEM Bosch forced induction ECU's since early 2000's. Sample rates and resolution have increased dramatically in a decade plus since then. Though, I would not recommend to anyone that they do a plug and play mail-order tune onto any car without feedback/logging being generated first. Therein lies the point of "log first, tune 2nd".
It is important to account for system anomalies that vary from car to car. Anything is possible. You've probably seen your share of wildly calibrated wastegate actuators, boost leaks, post-MAF fresh air leaks, lazy O2 sensors, etc. All of which have the capability to force non-standard trims into an overall limp mode if more boost is thrown at marginal (existing) hardware.
I am suggesting that the original state of tune and the integrity of the plumbing and sensors should be fully known prior to modifying the programming. Without knowing existing slightly out of bounds variables that aren't enough to trigger a stock boost CEL; the tuner leaves themselves in a position whereby the original program must be reinstalled or turned down by a fair margin until the hardware anomalies are repaired. New cars *should* be fine thinking that the manufacturers are selling top notch error free machines. Though, it was 70 degrees in Philadelphia for 2 days last week. Awesome winter weather! Guess anything can happen.
Related to remote tuning, do you have a (custom?) data logging program for out of region dealers?
Thanks much.
Fuel/timing trims and boost PID open/closed loop technology and wide-band 02 feedback has been incorporated into OEM Bosch forced induction ECU's since early 2000's. Sample rates and resolution have increased dramatically in a decade plus since then. Though, I would not recommend to anyone that they do a plug and play mail-order tune onto any car without feedback/logging being generated first. Therein lies the point of "log first, tune 2nd".
It is important to account for system anomalies that vary from car to car. Anything is possible. You've probably seen your share of wildly calibrated wastegate actuators, boost leaks, post-MAF fresh air leaks, lazy O2 sensors, etc. All of which have the capability to force non-standard trims into an overall limp mode if more boost is thrown at marginal (existing) hardware.
I am suggesting that the original state of tune and the integrity of the plumbing and sensors should be fully known prior to modifying the programming. Without knowing existing slightly out of bounds variables that aren't enough to trigger a stock boost CEL; the tuner leaves themselves in a position whereby the original program must be reinstalled or turned down by a fair margin until the hardware anomalies are repaired. New cars *should* be fine thinking that the manufacturers are selling top notch error free machines. Though, it was 70 degrees in Philadelphia for 2 days last week. Awesome winter weather! Guess anything can happen.
Related to remote tuning, do you have a (custom?) data logging program for out of region dealers?
Thanks much.
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Hi Eric,
The new Bosch and MM ECUs are really good. The only way the parameters are going to be out of whack on a newer car is if someone messed with something they shouldn't have, and that does happen. Even in that case the ECU figures it out and keeps everything safe. If the problem is outside of the trim range, the ECU still doesn't need to be reprogrammed, but the problem does need to be fixed, (i.e. a new boost solenoid or whatever). What that means is that if we set the tune to give (I am totally making up a parameter here) 22psi at 5200rpm, it's going to be there unless it's outside of the trim range, in which case the car will be stuck at some lower and thus safer value until the problem is fixed.
Specifically where we see this problem is when some well intentioned person, but with a slight lack of understanding adjusted the wastegate actuator spring tension and travel. This was such a big problem with one specific car that I had to make a video to explain how to set the tension back to stock correctly, as the authors of the shop manual did not foresee this screw up.
Anyway, on to logging. That's really easy with these ECUs. If you want to do it the inexpensive way, either "Torque" or "Dash Command" apps for your tablet or smart phone do a good job of logging most of the sensors on the engine. These apps are around 10 bucks. However if you want to go all out, get Auterra, it's 140 bucks, but you will know where that money went. It's a professional level product. All of these can also read and clear check engine lights and codes. Auterra is so powerful that there simply isn't a need for a custom data logging program, there really isn't anything we could need that it can't do.
The bottom line is that we have tuned hundreds of modern Fiat and Alfa Bosch and MM ECUs without this being a problem, but if you are worried about it yes, you can log data and send us the info. We will look it over to try and pick up any anomalies, but I really doubt there will be any. Again in every case we have seen, the problem has been something someone did, usually the wastegate actuator spring, sometimes the evap system.
Greg
The new Bosch and MM ECUs are really good. The only way the parameters are going to be out of whack on a newer car is if someone messed with something they shouldn't have, and that does happen. Even in that case the ECU figures it out and keeps everything safe. If the problem is outside of the trim range, the ECU still doesn't need to be reprogrammed, but the problem does need to be fixed, (i.e. a new boost solenoid or whatever). What that means is that if we set the tune to give (I am totally making up a parameter here) 22psi at 5200rpm, it's going to be there unless it's outside of the trim range, in which case the car will be stuck at some lower and thus safer value until the problem is fixed.
Specifically where we see this problem is when some well intentioned person, but with a slight lack of understanding adjusted the wastegate actuator spring tension and travel. This was such a big problem with one specific car that I had to make a video to explain how to set the tension back to stock correctly, as the authors of the shop manual did not foresee this screw up.
Anyway, on to logging. That's really easy with these ECUs. If you want to do it the inexpensive way, either "Torque" or "Dash Command" apps for your tablet or smart phone do a good job of logging most of the sensors on the engine. These apps are around 10 bucks. However if you want to go all out, get Auterra, it's 140 bucks, but you will know where that money went. It's a professional level product. All of these can also read and clear check engine lights and codes. Auterra is so powerful that there simply isn't a need for a custom data logging program, there really isn't anything we could need that it can't do.
The bottom line is that we have tuned hundreds of modern Fiat and Alfa Bosch and MM ECUs without this being a problem, but if you are worried about it yes, you can log data and send us the info. We will look it over to try and pick up any anomalies, but I really doubt there will be any. Again in every case we have seen, the problem has been something someone did, usually the wastegate actuator spring, sometimes the evap system.
Greg
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Some people want the extra power, and we can often do this without risking the warranty. I can't give specifics yet because we don't have anything for the Giulia at this point, but we will.
Greg
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I must be older than you M. I remember when tuning a car was done in stages.
Stage:
1) Headers, big mouth air filter canister, and hacking off the mufflers. Don't know if it went faster, but it sure sounded faster.
2) Bigger carburetor.
3) Changing the cam shaft. I still remember an add for "3/4 race cam". What a bunch of hype.
4) Stage 4 was attempting to port-match the intake & exhaust ports.
5 & 6) These stages required pulling the engine and splitting the cases. (some engines have cases that do split, some don't)
I would amuse myself at times by adding all the parts in the back of the magazine together. This header claims 50hp. That intake claims 25hp. The 3/4 race cam claims something unrealistic. Spark plugs, ignition wires, ... My list of parts more than doubled the stock power, and it was all just bolt-on parts from multiple companies. Possible? Doubtful? Keep in mind that these claims didn't rely on any other mods.
Truth is that it was (still is) a complete system and one part effects how all the others perform. You need to think of it as a complete system and how each area effects the others. Does the exhaust flow well enough to support the big cam? Do I have enough flow to support the big carb or will it just stumble? When I start making more power, does the fuel pump flow enough to feed the greater power? Now that I have a higher revving engine, will the ignition still work at the higher RPM? (points cam float or coil can't recover) Will I get valve float at this newer higher RPM? Who ever asks, "Where will my new torque and HP be?" Or, "What will my new torque and power curve be like?"
It's not just as simple as adding a in-line electronic plug thingy that adds +5% to everything without any knowledge of what's coming in and what's going out and what is safe and unsafe.
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I remember when a tune involved changing the points and adjusting the dwell. I am pretty sure if I handed a dwell meter to my kids (they are adults who are very savvy with modern cars) they would have absolutely no idea what it is.
Greg
Greg
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@Racer been there done that in my American car era:grin2:
Was referring to cars with no carbs, and that were forced induction, whether it be Trubo/SC/ or bottle fed
Came to the conclusion I prefer N/A motors...but alas that ship has long sailed when talking new....
Can't remember the last time I saw a car with points LOL
If you want adventure get your self an old alfa without FI and try to tune the side draft carbs..music to my ears!
Regards
M
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Well, my father has a 66 GTV with side drafts. I have a 73 240z with points and side drafts. I have a 70 Ford F250 with points. Bought a new dwell meter recently and a new timing light. I'm no stranger to using an air flow meter or mercury gauges and syncing carbs. Been through plenty of bikes (motorcycles). Do all my own wrenching including engine rebuilding as necessary.@Racer been there done that in my American car era:grin2:
Was referring to cars with no carbs, and that were forced induction, whether it be Trubo/SC/ or bottle fed
Came to the conclusion I prefer N/A motors...but alas that ship has long sailed when talking new....
Can't remember the last time I saw a car with points LOL
If you want adventure get your self an old alfa without FI and try to tune the side draft carbs..music to my ears!
Regards
M
The problem with replacing points in modern times is they're all made in China. They fail in just a few trips around the block. Pertronix.
Greg. Is this like OTS tuning similar to Cobb? I'm not new to OTS tunes from marque vendors and even some open source tuners. Got any dynos? or plot maps?
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I really don't want to post anymore in this thread since it's a thread about products from a competing vendor.
Greg
I purchased a ECU clone from Pogea in the early days of the 4c. It made a significant noticeable improvement in power delivery; the only negative was I went through the rear tires in 4500 miles. Pogea seems to come to the market early and thus is expensive and product support is a bit difficult. Other vendors introduced more price competitive offerings 6 months later than Pogea and provide stellar customer support.
Given the performance level of the Quad, I do not feel inclined to start upgrading it immediately.
Given the performance level of the Quad, I do not feel inclined to start upgrading it immediately.
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