[Ern1]

Hi all,

I've been lurking these forums for awhile now, and have found the threads to be very informative and helpful... but now I need your guys' advice.

I've been living car-less for 15 years in the city, but since I'll be moving to the suburbs... it's time for me to buy my first car since high school (Crazy, right?).

As a single guy, 2 doors vs 4 doors isn't really a major consideration.

I've always loved the 911 and am debating between buying a pre-owned 911 (whichever spec/year I can get for $90k) or a new QV.

This is a tough decision, since I also love the Alfa Romeo - it's a cool car with a "niche" factor, but it's also much more low-key than a 911 (a very good thing, imo). The reviews for this car give it extremely highly praise, so this is a large part of the car's appeal as well. However, I have yet to read a direct 911 comparison, since, obviously, the QV wasn't really designed to be a 911 competitor.

Nevertheless, are there any 911 owners that can comment on how the QV drives in comparison and also any other aspects? What would you do in my shoes?

Thank you for your time.

Ernest

 

[burgngoldman]

I haven't driven the QV yet, but I have hundreds of thousands of miles in 911's, including a few hundred days on track in various generations. I have a 964 right now and a 991.2 GTS coming in June. I also hope to get a QV some time. I have an order now with Alfa in D1 status, whatever that means in terms of a schedule. Nobody can tell me.

So I can't do the head to head comparison quite yet, but some thoughts:

The Porsche ordering and buying process is 10x more pleasurable than Alfa. They really, really have their stuff together. Having said that, getting one for 90k will be tight. It's up to you if you are ok with plastic dash and doors, manual tranny (good thing in my book), no PASM, maybe just the basic seats, etc at that price. Porsche option list is pages long and a 90k car will be missing a lot of options that are standard or part of packages on most other cars, including the Giulia.

The 991.2 is a brilliant track car. It's shockingly great. (I had time with the new car in the PSDS Masters Plus class last fall) I'm buying one because I want a track car that I don't have to pull the truck and trailer out for. Just something I can drive to and from track for a fun weekend with no fuss. That was the original idea behind the Giulia, but I couldn't get one in time for this season, and so the 911 will be that GT car that is still brilliant on track.

On the other hand, the 911's have also gotten very clinical over the years. They are fantastic tools, but to me they are tools of a trade, not a car that i feel in my gut like I do a Ferrari, or even a Miata, or the old air-cooled 911's. I don't get that endorphin from the newer 911's, but again they are extremely competent, reliable cars and you will very reliabily pass a lot of seriously track prepped cars in your bone stock car that you just drove 3 hours to the track with your latte in hand. That's kind of cool, but not Ferrari levels of making your heart just sing.

I hope the Alfa will be the right blend for me. A practical GT car that we can enjoy as a family, a competent track car on occasion, and a car that still has some of that visceral, bottom of your gut level excitement that you get from truly characterful cars.

I am extremely frustrated with the Alfa dealers and their ordering process, but if/when I finally get one, that's what I'm hoping for.

 

[Cassino]

Both are extremely competent cars. It is going to come down to which you prefer, not which is better. I think you've got to take each for extended test drives, forget logic, and go with what your feel more comfortable/special in.

The Carrera S and 4S feel like very different cars.
The Giulia QV with standard seats feels like a very different car to the Giulia QV with Sparco seats.

Please test drive all combinations to get a true picture. There are other options for each car of course, but in my opinion those two confiurations make the biggest difference.

 

[burgngoldman]

Another car to consider, if you don't need the space, is the 718. I don't how much you intend to track your car, but in normal country roads, canyons, etc, at normal speeds the Cayman is still more fun to drive than the 911, IMO.

You can also get some options that you might want and still stay around 90k.

 

[inikkor]

The 718 is so much less car compared to the new 911. I would take a stripped down 911 vs a loaded 718 anyday.

Another consideration while we are on this subject is the about the premium we pay for the Q compared to a base Giulia.

If we compare a base giulia to a base 718 The Giulia is almost half the price. A Q is the same price as a base 911 after the usual 911 8% discount you get from a P dealer albeit a little less equipped.
n
There is a lot of value in a base Giulia.

 

[Vailoce]

The obvious answer is to try to RENT (not just a test drive with the sales person) the cars you are considering for a couple days IF you can find a high end/performance rental company. Even if its not the exact car you are considering, you will at least get the feel of whats its like to drive one daily.

Everybody is going to have a different opinion but some things to consider besides just which one FEELS better:
1- Maybe consider a Cayman totally tricked out instead of a stripped down 911.
2- One of these cars will get "I wish I had his money" kind of looks. One will get "I wish I had his car" kind of looks.
3- You won't have to sell the Giulia when you get married and have kids.
4- The Giulia is more-or-less a "new" car; you might want to lease one first and then buy it when the lease is up if its trouble free OR swap it for a new one that has the upgrades and/or fixes.
5- What are you really going to do with it? One is a street legal race car, the other is a race legal street car.
6- And last but certainly not least: In one you can fit at least THREE Monza Grid Girls to ride around with you. The other only has room for you and Angela Merkel....

(Yeah, I'm a long time Italian car owner, so consider the source...)

 

[burgngoldman]

I don't know how the 718 is less of a car than a 911. I'm as big a fan of the 911 as anyone, having just ordered my 8th one.

But I know a lot of people who buy 911's because of hp or prestige, when the Cayman would have been a much more enjoyable car for them. The better weight distribution is very noticeable.

If I were buying a street Porsche for fun back roads I would choose the Cayman.

As others have said, real test drives are necessarily. Not just around the block and up/down a couple off ramps with a sales person. You might consider a PSDS class where you'll get enough experience with different Porsches to see which one is right for you.

 

[MDriver]

IF I were you living where I live (NE) no wife, no kids....997 C4S all day...Sport Chrono PASM manual..
thought you were going to ask a tough question LOL

 

[Ern1]

burgngoldman, cassino, inikkor, vailoce, mdriver - I really, really appreciate your detailed thoughts!

I guess I should also say the budget for the Porsche isn't very strict - $90K would certainly be ideal, depending on what's available in the pre-owned market (base 991 it looks like). However, $110-120K is not out of the question for the 991.2 S or 4S if it's vastly superior to the 991 pre-owned options. The $90K budget was just arbitrarily set by the MSRP of Giulia + 10K. I should've stated this originally, I'm sorry. It seems from your guys' posts that the calculus would shift in favor of the 991.2 S or 4S, then?

Also regarding the specific purpose of my vehicle... strictly daily driver, some spirited weekend warrior driving. No tracking (or maybe in the future, but I don't plan on it).

I actually test drove a 991.2 S the other day and I loved the car. The service at Porsche was impeccable and there wasn't any BS and I test drove the car within 10 minutes of walking in the door. Really hard to find any faults, but I think the "clinical" description is accurate - it's a very refined car. I like the 911, or perhaps the idea of owning one, just because it's always been *the* car I've wanted growing up - which is why a 718/Cayman isn't really my *thing*, however superb it is. Of note, my desire for the 911 has sort of waned in recent years - mainly, I'd prefer to be low-key. I know 911s are common, but they are still also a status symbol. Of course, I don't *really* care what people think and there are no real consequences, but I just don't like any unnecessary attention if that makes sense.

The QV is also an "emotional" buy for me as well, because I like Alfa Romeo, italian cars, and its being labeled as the "Ferrari sedan" especially intrigues me. I've driven several 458s, and I love the steering feel.

I'm eager to test drive the quadrifoglio, though it seems the Alfa dealers are unwilling to allow test drives given the allotment and pre-purchased inventory. I'm sure it will be outstanding.

Another question, is it possible that it's better than the 911 in terms of feeling, or is that out of the question? It's not obvious to me, as I'm not a "pro" driver by any means, so I don't even know if I'd be qualified to make that determination.

Vailoce - Just to clarify... In your eyes, the street legal race car = the 991, and race legal street car = the QV?

Anyways... I've got a lot of homework to do!

 

[burgngoldman]

Well, if you've always wanted to own a 911 (many of us grew up with that same dream) then you will eventually have to buy one. You might just want to get that out of the way now.

The fact that you aren't bound to $90k and that you might even consider used ones are huge benefits. That gives you access to decently equipped cars and even AWD if that's your thing.

For a single person, a 911 is a perfectly practical daily driver. I daily drove a 996 back before I got married.

It's also worth pointing out that most Porsche manuals are fantastic (with only a couple exceptions). Their PDK is also fantastic. So you can't go wrong there. There was complaining about the new turbo motors, but I think they nailed it with those, too. However, the 991.1 and 997.2 do sound better.

I test drove the Giulia Ti and I loved the steering speed. I found that car to be super well balanced also. So here's a provocative use of your $110-120k: how about a Ti for daily use and a proper air-cooled 911 for the weekends?

I don't know where you live, but where I live I have no use for 400-500 or more hp except on the track. Rest of the time that unused power is just frustrating. So why not a Ti and a fun weekend car if you have the space?

 

[burgngoldman]

BTW, I liked everything about the Ti. The seating position, looks, comfort, motor. It would be a great DD in combination with a weekend sports car.

 

[Ern1]

That is very true - I will eventually get a 911, I'm sure. And it makes sense to buy a 2-door right now while it's still convenient.

I wish Alfa would hurry up and deliver your car - I definitely would *love* your reasoned perspective and comparison of the two vehicles.

And, the Giulia Ti didn't even cross my mind - I suppose now one part of my decision tree is buying the $90K used 911 first, then buying a Giulia Ti down the line - or maybe even the QV even further down the line... not in a rush.

 

[Ern1]

One other question: I've been assuming I would pay msrp for the QV - is that right, or is there still an "adjustment"/premium?

 

[KMW]

I have a Quadrifoglio and a 911. They are very different cars, but both are fine as a daily driver in your situation. If I was single with no need for the extra space and then I would choose a 911 every time (or a Cayman GT4).

 

[BostonDMD]

I have a 2009 911S with less then 18K miles for sale (a lot less than $90K).

I am going to buy a MY18 QV.

I have raced a 1987 Carrera (air-cooled), those were the very visceral, no nannies at all, the real 911s. Nowadays, especially the 991s, they have gotten faster yes, but larger and way less visceral than the older ones. When I instruct in them, a student looks like a superstar on the first day at the track because of all the nannies. The car is basically driving him around instead of him being in total control of the car. If you are not going to track the car then I would buy a QV. If you buy a Porsche I would recommend a 997.2 instead of a 991 model unless you are into status symbol.

Good luck with your choice, let us know what you decide!

 

[inikkor]

"I don't know how the 718 is less of a car than a 911. I'm as big a fan of the 911 as anyone, having just ordered my 8th one."

let's see... 6 cylinders vs 4 cylinders, bigger more powerful brakes, 7 gears vs 6 gears, 4 seats vs 2 seats, $35k price difference, prestige and heritage. Enough?

 

[Ern1]

Thanks KMW and BostonDMD for joining in with your thoughts - definitely more to think about...

BostonDMD - You mention that if I'm not going to track the car, the QV is your recommendation. Is the QV more "visceral" feeling than the modern 991 and 991.2 variants? In other words, the QV is maybe not the fastest compared to the 911, but more fun to drive? For the Porsche, I'd get the 991 or 991.2 since I'd prefer a newer car (not for the status symbol, just something new-ish). Curious to hear both your thoughts and KMW's thoughts on the driving experience since you guys have slightly different preferences.

 

[Gfrfan]

I test drove the Giulia Ti and I loved the steering speed. I found that car to be super well balanced also. So here's a provocative use of your $110-120k: how about a Ti for daily use and a proper air-cooled 911 for the weekends?



That is an awesome suggestion!!!!

 

[Max]

One other question: I've been assuming I would pay msrp for the QV - is that right, or is there still an "adjustment"/premium?

Fiat/AR of Portland offered me a QV for $1k below invoice coming in May. A fellow member here called them and was offered 2k below MSRP which isn't as good as what they offered me. A while ago there was an $85k msrp QV in Denver going for like $82k or so. There absolutely is wiggle room, just need to find it. Other dealers try sell them for 5-7k above in other places.

 

[BostonDMD]

Ern1, I have not driven the QV, therefore I couldn't tell you about how visceral it is compared to the 991.

All I know is that the QV will be faster than the 991 see
https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/
And I am sure the QV in race mode with all the nannies off will be thrilling.......

I don't know where you live, but the QV will also be less flashy and more unique then a 911...... although reliability on the QV is to still to be determined.....

Best......