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why are there so many people (and a few recorded banned alts) who want to insist people use a different spec oil to the one that is recommended by the manufacturers

is this like an ego trip thing ? ... a want to appear knowledgeable thing ? a rise above the mainstream ego kick? ... an anti vaxxer side effect ? ... a QANON thing ?

or just a load of BULLSHIT

:)
 

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In my 2.0, I've been using Pennzoil 5w40 Euro Platinum, like used in a Quad. As an FCA tech I have access to a lot of it for really cheap. It's actually a lot cheaper(my cost) vs the Mopar 0w30. I live in a hot climate and it's been great. The valve train is a little bit quieter while using. It's SN+ which I think is the most important thing to prevent ping. I have noticed a little better oil consumption during the last few oil changes. If I lived in a colder climate, I wouldn't recommend this. In fact I took a 5k trek across snowy territory and switched back to 0w30 before the trip. I can't see any harm in running 5w30 like @Crosshairs as long as it's SN+.
 

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why are there so many people (and a few recorded banned alts) who want to insist people use a different spec oil to the one that is recommended by the manufacturers

is this like an ego trip thing ? ... a want to appear knowledgeable thing ? a rise above the mainstream ego kick? ... an anti vaxxer side effect ? ... a QANON thing ?

or just a load of BULLSHIT

:)
You're just part of the round-earther lizard-people cabal trying to push your 5g agenda on us. Contact me for protective gear before it's too late.

108281
 

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I'm sorry but there is no way that oil viscosity could possibly affect the timing enough that you will have piston to valve contact. No way no how.

Theres 2 things "maintenance related" that can cause that, both related to the timing belt either snapping, or wearing out and therefore skipping a tooth or more.

The timing chain has no impact on the intake valve timing on a multiair engine
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I'm going to contact AMSOIL directly and ask not just about the API certs but if in their opinion the signature series 5W30 will cause any harm to our 2.0 engines. They have a phone and contact form, either way as soon as I get a response, I'll post it here.
 

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I'm going to contact AMSOIL directly and ask not just about the API certs but if in their opinion the signature series 5W30 will cause any harm to our 2.0 engines. They have a phone and contact form, either way as soon as I get a response, I'll post it here.
Having contacted them before and being an Amsoil dealer I can guess they will say "no don't use it". It would be on their list of recommended oils if it was. (I checked for our ex '17).

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I'm going to contact AMSOIL directly and ask not just about the API certs but if in their opinion the signature series 5W30 will cause any harm to our 2.0 engines. They have a phone and contact form, either way as soon as I get a response, I'll post it here.
If they say anything other than " follow the manufacturers recommendations" their legal team will have a fit.
 

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If cost is a factor, try pricing an oil change at a Dodge Dealership. The one near me changed my friends 2017 Giulia 2.0 engine oil and filter for $70.77 'out the door. They used Mopar 0W-30 SN Plus (ONLY use SN Plus rated oil to reduce the chance LSPI; this is outlined in a Fiat-Alfa TSB) and a Mopar MO-339 filter.
I have a four oil change package from the local Dodge dealer. It only cost $199, I use to change the oil every six months. The nearest Alfa dealer is 1.5 hours away.

Maybe after this thread is done someone can start a catch-can thread and debate. I really never fully get why people always get spun up about this stuff. Your car, do as you wish. Use Canola Oil for all I care.
 
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The only reason you would need to go to a 5w30 instead of a 0w30 is if you live in a very hot climate, or you're using your engine in ways (racing) that raises the operating temperatures above what would normally be found in day to day driving, and even then, the higher number is the one to watch. Heat is what causes oils to fail. The low number is to allow the engine to start and have oil flowing before it gets to operating temperature and the heavier stuff heats up enough so it can flow properly. The oil is all sitting in the oil pan at the bottom of the engine when it's cold. 0w is very thin and flows easily. Metals expand as they heat up so it's critical to have oil flow during the transition from cold to full operating temperature which is why you see the mix range in an oil spec. Alfa chose it's oil spec based on a wide range of usage, from freezing in winter to hot summers. I don't see any real advantage going to a different spec under normal use. The closest Alfa dealer to me is now 350 miles away, so I was able to get the oil changed at my local FCA Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealer with factory spec oil and filter, including labor, tax and everything for about $140 if I remember correctly. That's not really expensive cost-wise, and it keeps my 8 year warranty intact. To be honest, I don't see any down-side to sticking with the factory spec, or any real up-side to raising the viscosity rating.
 

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The timing chain has no impact on the intake valve timing on a multiair engine
Incorrect. The cam is still mechanically connected to the crank via the timing chain. While the multi air setup affects the relation between the lobe actuation of the hydraulics that operate the valves, should that chain fail, there absolutely would still continue to be motion that would not be aligned between the two main rotating assemblies in the engine (the cam and the crank) and the exhaust valves would always still actuate (or be stuck open!) while the intake valves would depend on the pressure in the system at the time of failure. While timing chain failure is HIGHLY unlikely (though prior multi air engines like the Fiat 500 used a belt) that would be the only way you would end up with pistons and valves connecting, which is what I was replying to originally (the assertion that wrong oil viscosity could cause such an issue).

Though the multi air uses engine oil as "hydraulic fluid" for its cam phasing system to operate, changing oil viscosities would have 0 chance in hell of causing this type of failure. That mechanical connection is and will always still exist. The only possible theoretical thing (which is highly unlikely) is the valve would be stuck closed due to lack of hydraulic pressure to transfer the cam lobe pressure to the valve.
 

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The only possible theoretical thing (which is highly unlikely) is the valve would be stuck closed due to lack of hydraulic pressure to transfer the cam lobe pressure to the valve.
That is what I tried to say in my earlier post. Thank you.
 

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Wrong specification (not viscosity) oil will likely cause misfires at some point due to the Multiair solenoids not working correctly resulting in intake valve issues. There are numerous reports of Multiair problems (on various Alfas like the Mito and Giulietta) on the UK Alfa forums due to wrong oil being used. When I had the 2.0 engine before the Quadrifoglio, dealer filled Castrol 0w-30 oil which was not approved, it also did not meet any of the Fiat specifications. I had a few misfires soon after the oil change which is when I looked at the invoice and found they had the wrong oil filled! I then contacted Alfa Technical in Italy via customer care and I was told the wrong oil may invalidate the warranty and they cannot assure me it won't damage the engine in the long run if left unchanged. The dealer was instructed to replace the oil. I then questioned them and found the dealership had moved to Castrol as a whole and had been filling this oil in a few cars (some of those also suffered misfires) recently but they had not made a connection to the oil until I pointed it out. This then resulted in them recalling a few customer Giulia 2.0 cars for oil replacement. They drained and refilled with Selenia Digitek and all was well since until I sold the car. For the OP's climate, it should not really matter whether it is 0w30 or 5w30, but for cold climates it is important to have good cold oil flow for the Multiair system to work properly. Misfires are always at cold start with the MA unit. The oil feed has a very narrow passage to the MA brick via an inline separate small filter in the side of the block.

Replacing the oil early is not a violation of the manufacturer schedule which is both time and mileage based.
 

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When I had the 2.0 engine before the Quadrifoglio, dealer filled Castrol 0w-30 oil which was not approved, it also did not meet any of the Fiat specifications. I had a few misfires soon after the oil change
strange you mentioned that ... a similar thing reported here in the Antipodes
we had a dealer who tried to use Castrol 0W30 as a workshop go-to and reported CEL until they drained it out and replaced it with Selenia ...
 

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Incorrect. The cam is still mechanically connected to the crank via the timing chain. While the multi air setup affects the relation between the lobe actuation of the hydraulics that operate the valves, should that chain fail, there absolutely would still continue to be motion that would not be aligned between the two main rotating assemblies in the engine (the cam and the crank) and the exhaust valves would always still actuate (or be stuck open!) while the intake valves would depend on the pressure in the system at the time of failure. While timing chain failure is HIGHLY unlikely (though prior multi air engines like the Fiat 500 used a belt) that would be the only way you would end up with pistons and valves connecting, which is what I was replying to originally (the assertion that wrong oil viscosity could cause such an issue).

Though the multi air uses engine oil as "hydraulic fluid" for its cam phasing system to operate, changing oil viscosities would have 0 chance in hell of causing this type of failure. That mechanical connection is and will always still exist. The only possible theoretical thing (which is highly unlikely) is the valve would be stuck closed due to lack of hydraulic pressure to transfer the cam lobe pressure to the valve.

We have 1 cam shaft. The cam shaft is timed through a timing chain to the crank. The camshaft has lobes that directly actuate the exhaust valves. The camshaft has lobes that directly actuate the individual multiair pumps heads.

The camshaft does not have lobes that directly actuate the intake valves.

The intake valves are hydraulically actuated by the multiair solenoids. This is the purpose of multiair. It allows for infinite control over the intake valve timing and lift and can even actuate multiple times on one intake stroke if the piston. The PCM controls the solenoid valves. It needs to compensate for expected viscocity in the system for proper valve operation. Viscocity effects flow! It contains an oil temperature sensor that allows for this and throws a code when it senses timing is off.

Will a change between 0W-30 and 5W-30 change things dramatically. Probably not unless suddenly it gets to -20deg one morning. Is there absolutely any benefits to switching to 5W-30... Not even a single one.

Multiair
 

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We have 1 cam shaft. The cam shaft is timed through a timing chain to the crank. The camshaft has lobes that directly actuate the exhaust valves. The camshaft has lobes that directly actuate the individual multiair pumps heads.

The camshaft does not have lobes that directly actuate the intake valves.

The intake valves are hydraulically actuated by the multiair solenoids. This is the purpose of multiair. It allows for infinite control over the intake valve timing and lift and can even actuate multiple times on one intake stroke if the piston. The PCM controls the solenoid valves. It needs to compensate for expected viscocity in the system for proper valve operation. Viscocity effects flow! It contains an oil temperature sensor that allows for this and throws a code when it senses timing is off.

Will a change between 0W-30 and 5W-30 change things dramatically. Probably not unless suddenly it gets to -20deg one morning. Is there absolutely any benefits to switching to 5W-30... Not even a single one.

Multiair
Thats literally what I said. I never said the intake valves were actuated by the cam. I do not understand your need to fight me when everything I have said is correct and you literally have no posted a video supporting everything I have said. You have in repeating everything I said proved my point. You will NOT have any piston/valve contact unless there is a failure of the timing chain. Then the exhaust valves could hit the pistons, oil viscosity cannot and will not cause this, ever. The intake valves while being actuated by hydraulics those hydraulics are actuated by the cam. In a loss of pressure scenario, they would be stuck closed. So... no piston to valve contact, unless somehow in the seconds of failure they are pressurized because again the mechanical pressure is provided by the cam, and controlled by the pump head. I think this scenario is highly unlikely.

I also agree there is little to no benefit. And as mentioned earlier if the oil is missing needed additives, it could be a detriment.
 
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Thats literally what I said. I never said the intake valves were actuated by the cam. I do not understand your need to fight me when everything I have said is correct and you literally have no posted a video supporting everything I have said. You have in repeating everything I said proved my point. You will NOT have any piston/valve contact unless there is a failure of the timing chain. Then the exhaust valves could hit the pistons, oil viscosity cannot and will not cause this, ever. The intake valves while being actuated by hydraulics those hydraulics are actuated by the cam. In a loss of pressure scenario, they would be stuck closed. So... no piston to valve contact, unless somehow in the seconds of failure they are pressurized because again the mechanical pressure is provided by the cam, and controlled by the pump head. I think this scenario is highly unlikely.

I also agree there is little to no benefit. And as mentioned earlier if the oil is missing needed additives, it could be a detriment.
If the oil is too thick and the PCM does not adjust for it correctly you could have a late closing valve that could smack the piston. The viscocity effects the oil flow and the oil flow determines the position of the valve. It's as simple as that. That's why multiair throws codes when it senses timing errors and why different oils can and do cause misfires.

The timing chain and camshaft discussion adds nothing to this conversation.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
If the oil is too thick ....
This is all based on the premise that 5W is going to be too thick, but I thought many contributors have already confirmed that unless you are operating in severely cold weather, the oil is going to have the same Winter viscosity as shown on this chart, hence the affect of warmer climate (i.e. Calfifornia which is why I started this to start with) will have a much greater affect on viscosity than the 5W "thicker" oil (but I say "thicker" in the slightest sense possible). I would bet the your 0W30 in New York is THICKER than my 5W30 here in California when we both jump into our cars this morning to go to work at say 7AM (I'll be at 60 degrees and you'll be at 35). And this doesn't even cover the possible varience between oil manufacturers that can factor into it. It's like you haven't read any of the posts. You're not considering all the input:
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If the oil is too thick and the PCM does not adjust for it correctly you could have a late closing valve that could smack the piston. The viscocity effects the oil flow and the oil flow determines the position of the valve. It's as simple as that. That's why multiair throws codes when it senses timing errors and why different oils can and do cause misfires.

The timing chain and camshaft discussion adds nothing to this conversation.
It adds everything, you're making a very large assumption about the operation of the system causing the valve to close late, when the reality is it would need to REALLY BE STUCK, as in the person who owned the car never changed the oil and it was thick like paste, then maybe I can see that happening. Again the valves actuation is still controlled by the camshaft's position. The valves are not just opening and closing on their own, the only engine that does that is from Koneigsegg.

I can definitely see misfires being caused by oil due to pressure within that system and I acknowledge that, but for the valve to be stuck open long enough for piston to valve contact, it would need to be literally as thick as paste, massively thicker than even 50wt race oil. And in that case any engine, not just multiair would have a failure.

And the idea of oil being that thick due to never changing it, adds nothing to this conversation.
 
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