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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As many of you know, our member Kanundrum took the time and spend the moeny to dyno test the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Now multiple automotive journalists are, in my opinion misusing and misrepresenting the results. Some don't even understand the difference between rear wheel horsepower and flywheel horsepower.

About 3 years ago, I wrote a tech page explaining that the newest Fiats and Alfas can detect when they are on a typical dyno and that they will often pull back power as a result. At first a lot of people thought I was crazy. Soon a lot of people realized I was right, then VW's Diesel Gate saga came along proving that certain modern cars CAN detect when they are on a dyno, and that they do run less power.

It's my opinion that the Giulia has the same issue. I haven't tested it yet myself, but I soon will.

For those who want to understand this issue and how it works, please read the tech page I wrote about this. Once I test the Giulia I'll update it again.

https://shopeurocompulsion.net/blogs/technical-articles/dyno-testing-problems-methods-and-solutions

Greg
 

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Makes sense. After all, it had no trouble keeping up with the 510HP C63s in recent comparison tests.

The bigger question...is this a "cheat device"? More HP = more emissions?
 

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It's unfortunate this is a saga. I understand this particular car has been on a giant east coast publicity tour (I'm not judging at all, just observing), and controversy helps with that, but it's unfortunate the impact that this might have on Alfa's comeback.

Again, I am not criticizing the tour that this particular car has been on. I totally get it. I also work in a company where we have a lot invested in our brand, and so I can see both sides of the value of the controversy, and the potential impact on Alfa's brand here.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the eating in this case is how the car has performed in actual track tests. If the car was severely underpowered compared to the 503 claim, then that would have shown up in track times or even in just drag strip times. Those have variables in them also, but those tests still seem a lot closer to what engines are designed to actually do, not a simulation of load run in some garage.
 

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I agree. I think it was awesome that our forum member ponied up the time and cash to do the dyno. The unfortunate part is that something was clearly off, so the dyno probably should have been embargoed until the issue was figured out. However, how could he have known that it would gain such traction in the national press. Oh well. Stuff happens!
 

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I agree. I think it was awesome that our forum member ponied up the time and cash to do the dyno. The unfortunate part is that something was clearly off, so the dyno probably should have been embargoed until the issue was figured out. However, how could he have known that it would gain such traction in the national press. Oh well. Stuff happens!
I have access to witech now and will find out again shortly.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
The bigger question...is this a "cheat device"? More HP = more emissions?
No, almost certainly not. In the other FCA cars it's actually a well thought out safety system and has nothing to do with emissions. What's essentially going on is the systems are designed to be fail "safe", meaning that if the ESC doesn't see correct readings from the sensors, it assumes slippage and cuts back on power.

This system logic is the reason why you can't just pull the fuses associated with the ESC system and get around the dyno issue. If you do that, the ECU thinks something is wrong (which it is in this case) and assumes some slippage is occurring. It needs to see that slippage is NOT occurring to allow full power.

Again, this is all based on what we have seen in the Abarths, and the 4C, but I am betting the Giulia is the same. I'll know for sure soon.

Greg
 

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This is the quote from the German tuning factory Pogea Racing:

"The car goes in surrogate map when it is not in DYNO MODE. / Rollentest"

The owner wrote this comment under the video Owning an Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio (Part 5) Dyno, Weight & Active Aero on youtube.

Pogea Racing is well known for tuning Alfa Romeos. At the moment they are offering the Stage 1 kit for the Giulia QV which increases output to 577hp and torque to 705Nm. But they are currently running a Giulia QV with 700hp.

So I would say those guys know their game and I am highly doubting those bizzare Dyno results on the mustang dyno...
 

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This is the quote from the German tuning factory Pogea Racing:

"The car goes in surrogate map when it is not in DYNO MODE. / Rollentest"

The owner wrote this comment under the video Owning an Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio (Part 5) Dyno, Weight & Active Aero on youtube.

Pogea Racing is well known for tuning Alfa Romeos. At the moment they are offering the Stage 1 kit for the Giulia QV which increases output to 577hp and torque to 705Nm. But they are currently running a Giulia QV with 700hp.

So I would say those guys know their game and I am highly doubting those bizzare Dyno results on the mustang dyno...
I will say if you know about dynos you know those are not real WHP numbers. The engine would grenade if those are WHP. The numbers they are stating at crank HP and not true whp numbers showing drivetrain loss.
 

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I will say if you know about dynos you know those are not real WHP numbers. The engine would grenade if those are WHP. The numbers they are stating at crank HP and not true whp numbers showing drivetrain loss.
+1 IIRC aren't those the fellows who did grenade a Quad engine looking for 600+hp??
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I will say if you know about dynos you know those are not real WHP numbers. The engine would grenade if those are WHP. The numbers they are stating at crank HP and not true whp numbers showing drivetrain loss.
For whatever reason, the European aftermarket tuners always seem to quote flywheel numbers, which are based off some estimate of driveline losses. Since they rarely say what those estimates are, they are not really useful for comparisons.

In the US, for better or worse, most tuners quote wheel horsepower numbers.

Greg
 

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For whatever reason, the European aftermarket tuners always seem to quote flywheel numbers, which are based off some estimate of driveline losses. Since they rarely say what those estimates are, they are not really useful for comparisons.

In the US, for better or worse, most tuners quote wheel horsepower numbers.

Greg
WHP Is where is counts :grin2:Kudos ;)
 

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Does anyone know how long is the overboost in race mode? It might be that the 510ps are with overboost but it might not last the length of a dyno session?

Just some guess work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok, guys. So what is the conclusion? How much "real" horsepower has the Giulia?
I am 100% certain that the Giulia has all the horsepower that Alfa claims. It's acceleration data shows that. I will soon have an advanced dyno in my shop that will be able to properly dyno this car. It won't be able to tell it's not on a real road, and at that point I'll post power at the wheels in all the various driving modes and more.

Greg
 
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