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The fact that a group of dedicated designers and engineers, within an admittedly dysfunctional company, could create the Giorgio platform and the two marvelous models they used it for, is very encouraging. Corporations that grow large and are subsidized by politicians to supposedly create jobs, is never a place to look for excellence, efficiency and innovation, but Alfa in its current state has delivered two superb cars - an amazing sedan and a market perfect SUV - and I for one am grateful to be able to return to the brand. I grew up in a world in the 60s and 70s in South Africa, where Alfa was a prestige brand and they had a local factory too, so there were a lot of them. My last Alfa of that era was an Alfetta GTV with a four cylinder engine, essentially the same car as the six cylinder GTV sold in the USA. It was a glorious car and drew admiration and compliments all the time. I moved to the USA in the mid 80's and Alfa was a ghost. They launched the 164 around that time and it was a lovely car but the same dealer issues the are so prevalent now were even more magnified and the brand simply had no chance to survive against the Japanese and Germans. It's quite Ironic that the AXIS powers of WW II became the dominant car makers, and just like WW II they screwed their Italian counterpart. Thankfully the brand returned to the US and we now have three new Alfas - a 2018 Stelvio Lusso a 2019 Giulia Ti Sport and a 2020 G Quad. we love them all and at this point I'm delighted to be rid of the the Germans we had for so many years before. I hope they can sort out the dealer issues and maintain Alfa as a Halo brand for the Stellantis group. I don't want to go back to staid and boring at this time of my life.
 

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It's quite Ironic that the AXIS powers of WW II became the dominant car makers, and just like WW II they screwed their Italian counterpart.
Post WWII Japan and West Germany benefited from US occupation. Italy, as an ally, was left on its own (relatively) and culturally is not enough like the Japanese or Germans to become manufacturing/engineering power centers.
 

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Sales do not equate to profitability.

EDIT, I forgot more failures..

1970s - Chrysler staves off bankruptcy with a US Gov't Loan
1998 - Daimler takes over Chrysler ($38B value)
2007 - Daimler sells Chrysler to Cerberus (Private Equity firm) for only $6B
2009 - Chrysler files for bankruptcy
2009 - Marchionne experienced a loss in European market share from 9.3 to 6.2%
2009 - Fiat acquires New Chrysler to access Jeep
2013 - Fiat SpA had -28,000,000,000 EUR of DEBT and had its credit rating cut to Ba3
2014 - FCA created
2015 - FCA spins off part of Ferrari to access needed cash
2019 - FCA agrees to pay -$800-million due to Diesel emissions litigation
2019 - FCA proposes merger with Renault, rescinded.
2019 - FCA merger with PSA announced
2021 - Stellantis completed
I'm not arguing that FCA is the best managed or more profitable automaker, but it seems like you are cherry picking to support your case.
FCA in 2019 generated Net Profit of $6.6Bn (2018: $3.6Bn), but in 2020 Net Profit was reduced to $24mn largely due to COVID related shutdowns.
At the end of 2019 FCA only had $12.8bn Total Debt, so the debt figure you mentioned in 2013 was nicely reduced. By the end of 2020 the debt level went up again to $21bn, but regardless of that both S&P and Moody's upgraded the credit rating in Jan 2021 to BBB- / Baa3, (both Investment Grade category). So things were not as gloom and doom.
 

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Nothing against sharing platforms....as long as the platforms are made by the right people.
I'd argue that it's not who makes it, or even who designed it, but rather, it's if the platform itself is any good. Alfa isn't immune to designing and making bad cars. After all, a turd is a turd is a turd, even if it's pooped by a bunch of lasagna-eating, espresso-sipping, Versace-wearing fine folks in Turin and Cassino.
 

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I'm not arguing that FCA is the best managed or more profitable automaker, but it seems like you are cherry picking to support your case.
FCA in 2019 generated Net Profit of $6.6Bn (2018: $3.6Bn), but in 2020 Net Profit was reduced to $24mn largely due to COVID related shutdowns.
At the end of 2019 FCA only had $12.8bn Total Debt, so the debt figure you mentioned in 2013 was nicely reduced. By the end of 2020 the debt level went up again to $21bn, but regardless of that both S&P and Moody's upgraded the credit rating in Jan 2021 to BBB- / Baa3, (both Investment Grade category). So things were not as gloom and doom.
I've shown 50+ years and you described 3, and I am cherrypicking? They have a history of mediocrity. That is what I was showing.

FCA merged with PSA now for a reason. FCA gave up the reins because they had to.
 

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I'd argue that it's not who makes it, or even who designed it, but rather, it's if the platform itself is any good. Alfa isn't immune to designing and making bad cars. After all, a turd is a turd is a turd, even if it's pooped by a bunch of lasagna-eating, espresso-sipping, Versace-wearing fine folks in Turin and Cassino.
Ferrari/Maserati/Alfa vs Peugeot/Citroen/DS..... historically, which group has a higher likelihood of "pooping a turd"? I can't really answer that because i can't think of(or be bothered to look up) the mediocre, forgettable stuff the PSA brands have made over the past 50+ years.
 

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Why don't a few of you geniuses go work for Stelantis and fix all their problems.
The last I heard, Stellantis was offering early retirement packages to make room for new employees to work on electric vehicles.
 
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On a side note, my Giulia with 8000 miles has developed some rattling in the driver's door and speaker -_-

Didn't one of Alfa's execs recently claim their quality is now on-par with the Germans? My E90 didn't have a single rattle or squeak in the 12 years and 80,000 miles I had it.
 

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Why don't a few of you geniuses go work for Stelantis and fix all their problems.
Take it from somebody who grew up in Detroit's Big 3 culture and still knows people who work there.

Those companies are tone deaf, insular, and poorly managed. Chrysler is historically the worst of the trio. What makes you think they'd value any feedback from good engineers and product planners?

People with talent don't want to work in Detroit for a reason.
 

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Post WWII Japan and West Germany benefited from US occupation. Italy, as an ally, was left on its own (relatively) and culturally is not enough like the Japanese or Germans to become manufacturing/engineering power centers.
Not really. Italy was a member of the Axis of Germany Japan & Italy. Certainly not an ally Axis Alliance in World War II
 

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Not really. Italy was a member of the Acis of Germany Japan & Italy. Certainly not an ally Axis Alliance in World War II
Yes, at first. However, Italy signed an armistice with the Allies in 1943. It was approved by the King and Prime Minister of Italy. Mussolini fled to Germany. Italy was not occupied after the war bc it was an ally at the end (just like WWI).
 
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Take it from somebody who grew up in Detroit's Big 3 culture and still knows people who work there.

Those companies are tone deaf, insular, and poorly managed. Chrysler is historically the worst of the trio. What makes you think they'd value any feedback from good engineers and product planners?

People with talent don't want to work in Detroit for a reason.
I'll offer another perspective. I know bright, capable, and passionate people who work for the auto companies who too often feel thwarted by management and business practices. The companies appear to make good hiring decisions and then waste the talent.
 

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Yes, at first. However, Italy signed an armistice with the Allies in 1943. It was approved by the King and Prime Minister of Italy. Mussolini fled to Germany. Italy was not occupied after the war bc it was an ally at the end (just like WWI).
You don’t become an ally by surrendering. You simply have lost the battle. There was no point in occupying Italy. Politically they were in turmoil and militarily they were destroyed. They did not represent a danger of rising up again against the Allied countries. Don’t make any mistake about it - they were the enemy of the Allies in WW Ii
 

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You don’t become an ally by surrendering. You simply have lost the battle. There was no point in occupying Italy. Politically they were in turmoil and militarily they were destroyed. They did not represent a danger of rising up again against the Allied countries. Don’t make any mistake about it - they were the enemy of the Allies in WW Ii
There is more to it. They fought along side the Allies against the Germans in Italy. Maybe this will help:

Allies of World War II

Italy initially had been a leading member of the Axis powers, however after facing multiple military losses including the loss of all of Italy's colonies to advancing Allied forces, Duce Benito Mussolini was deposed and arrested in July 1943 by order of KingVictor Emmanuel III of Italy in co-operation with members of the Grand Council of Fascism who viewed Mussolini as having led Italy to ruin by allying with Germany in the war. Victor Emmanuel III dismantled the remaining apparatus of the Fascist regime and appointed Field Marshal Pietro Badoglio as Prime Minister of Italy. On 8 September 1943, Italy signed the Armistice of Cassibilewith the Allies, ending Italy's war with the Allies and ending Italy's participation with the Axis powers. Expecting immediate German retaliation, Victor Emmanuel III and the Italian government relocated to southern Italy under Allied control. Germany viewed the Italian government's actions as an act of betrayal, and German forces immediately occupied all Italian territories outside of Allied control,[105] in some cases even massacring Italian troops.

Italy became a co-belligerent of the Allies, and the Italian Co-Belligerent Army was created to fight against the German occupation of Northern Italy, where German paratroopers rescued Mussolini from arrest and he was placed in charge of a German puppet state known as the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Italy descended into civil war until the end of hostilities after his deposition and arrest, with Fascists loyal to him allying with German forces and helping them against the Italian armistice government and partisans.[106]
 

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Yes, at first. However, Italy signed an armistice with the Allies in 1943. It was approved by the King and Prime Minister of Italy. Mussolini fled to Germany. Italy was not occupied after the war bc it was an ally at the end (just like WWI).
and that's when the shit storm began in Italy....because of Badoglio's incompetence...among other blunders
 

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speaking of shit, I have never read so much of it as in the last couple of pages

(with the exception of @Crosshairs brilliant summation and comment of the level of expertise involved in some of them)

from speculation to generalisations to some outright geographical and cultural blunders (like Neapolitans wearing Versace whilst they work) to the impossible correlation of political alliances and ideology to manufacturing with a hint of Fascism thrown in

i cannot possibly challenge every single one of them and correct the faux pas (spelled the same but pronounced differently to indicate plural) lest we spiral out of control and introduce the dark arts of political discussion... but it would be extremely helpful if anyone can provide any sort of evidence of the 110 Year Demise Of Alfa Romeo (topic) ... and not what i have outlined in my previous sentence above

opinion is always welcome, but some of it absolutely irrelevant


so, ... Alfa Romeo is dying is it ? ... I dont think so

discuss ...
 
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