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‘19 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been considering getting an engine tune (well, the Madness MaxPower ECM piggyback, for its ease of removal on my lease vehicle) and I figured I should get some baseline measurements before adding one so that I can have a better understanding of what such a tune/device is adding.

I started by downloading an iPhone app called Speedbox, which uses the phone accelerometers and GPS to measure acceleration. With it's countdown launch timer, I grabbed some good 0-60mph times, like 5.1s, 5.4s, and my best of 4.99 seconds. Because it's GPS, though, I don't really trust it.

So, I went an got an OBDII scanner, specifically the PLX Kiwi3, which is supposed to be the fastest BlueTooth scanner out there. The Kiwi app doesn't have performance tests yet, so I installed the popular DashCommand app on my iPhone to connect with Kiwi3.

Without reading instructions, I plugged it in, got it connected to the app, and took off to grab some numbers. There didn't appear to be a start button or countdown timer, but it seemed straightforward enough: from zero, accelerate to 60mph, and it'd record. And that's mostly how it happened, but I got disappointingly slow times, the best being 6 seconds.

Which brings me to my question... I'll learn how to use the tools, but how are y'all driving to get the best 0-60mph times? Are you standing on the brakes in order to get launch RPMs up, and if so, to what engine speed? Manual or auto? Any other tricks?

I'll do the 0-60, some 1/4mi, and some jumps (like 30mph-70mph, 70-100mph or whatever) just to collect some data and have some solid experience to compare after tuning.

Any thoughts are appreciated!
 

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Community member mtb.ck answered the following to a similar question I asked. He also has a Q4. Hopefully he doesn't mind me copying and pasting his previous answer to me.


used OBDFusion on an iPad Air2 with Bluetooth dongle from Veepeak.

I’m not entirely pleased with their creeping at the line, and may sacrifice a couple tenths of a second because the car slides forward slightly and blows time at the start.

I edited my prior times, cuz I actually got a 4.74 best.

Technique that this forum taught me is:’

D Mode, Dampners set to Soft. Manual shifting. Powerbrake to 2,500rpm, roll off of brake sharply (don’t side step it). Use + to bang 2nd at 5,200-5,400 rpm indicated. + to bang 3rd at 5,500.

You’ll hit 60mph just before redline in 3rd. I usually shift to 4th at 5,500 slightly after the clock stops, just to keep up the charge, and avoid bouncing off the revlimiter.

EC P1+V2 Intake+ Soft summer tires+ Centerline Corsa will run hard to 5,800+ and bounce off of redline, where the stock car needs to be shifted about 300rpm earlier, and upper power drops off drastically after 5,300rpm. My tuned car has more tach-lag than the stock, because it pulls harder and quicker. I try not to do more than 2-3 attempts in one session, to keep the ZF tranny from overheating. So far, no problems.

I really think I could get down around 4.5 sec with more practice, and on some fresher tires. BTW pull in still air, in the morning when the air is cooler (<75degrees, often 60-65) and it really helps. Count on +.2-.4 seconds when the air is hotter than 85. I’m also at 5,300 ft, so a sea-level 0-60 charge should also take off .2 seconds, so I’d estimate that 4.4 is doable at low elevation.
 

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Gonna second the guy before me...put the brake pedal to the floor, floor the gas pedal and release brake at about 2500rpm. D mode with manual shifting. The transmission definately launches harder in manual mode so that's a must for best possible acceleration. Haven't ever actually timed a 0-60 but it certainly feels faster than the advertised 5.1s, and there's lots of info out there to confirm that suspicion.
 

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‘19 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, folks!

Launching at 2.5k rpm is much higher than I've done, and I've not done it in manual, so that should a) make quite a difference, and b) explain why the car hasn't felt particularly quick to me!

I'll head out tonight and throw down some runs like that and see what comes up.

Relatedly, I suppose a GoPedal or PedalPro would make a nice difference for regular accelerations where I'm not powerbraking, no?
 

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Thanks, folks!

Launching at 2.5k rpm is much higher than I've done, and I've not done it in manual, so that should a) make quite a difference, and b) explain why the car hasn't felt particularly quick to me!

I'll head out tonight and throw down some runs like that and see what comes up.

Relatedly, I suppose a GoPedal or PedalPro would make a nice difference for regular accelerations where I'm not powerbraking, no?
I'd save yourself a few hundred bucks and skip the gopedal. Simply stepping a little harder on the gas pedal than you normally do will have the same affect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'd save yourself a few hundred bucks and skip the gopedal. Simply stepping a little harder on the gas pedal than you normally do will have the same affect.
I know EuroCompulsion say the Pedal Pro is faster than the foot and pedal (link below), and presume the Madness GoPedal is the same; certainly my ol' foot ain't what she used to be!

I think that even if saving a few-- or several-- milliseconds isn't important in terms of lowering 0-60mph times, although PedalPro does have their FTL (full throttle launch) mode, it should change the feel and character of the car. I dunno...but it's pretty far down my list of desired mods right now.

https://www.giuliaforums.com/forum/802-vendor-deals/28857-euro-drive-pedal-pro.html#post465729
 

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I'd save yourself a few hundred bucks and skip the gopedal. Simply stepping a little harder on the gas pedal than you normally do will have the same affect.
I know EuroCompulsion say the Pedal Pro is faster than the foot and pedal (link below), and presume the Madness GoPedal is the same; certainly my ol' foot ain't what she used to be!

I think that even if saving a few-- or several-- milliseconds isn't important in terms of lowering 0-60mph times, although PedalPro does have their FTL (full throttle launch) mode, it should change the feel and character of the car. I dunno...but it's pretty far down my list of desired mods right now.

https://www.giuliaforums.com/forum/802-vendor-deals/28857-euro-drive-pedal-pro.html#post465729
Usually I’m one to stray away from products such as the GoPedal. I was able to get one for a price I was content with from a member here and I do have to say the response of the throttle is much more immediate. Even as a proactive/aggressive driver I would keep in mind the delay, especially from a stop. It would have me a bit nervous when making a turn onto a street that had oncoming traffic. It’s night and day, on setting 3 it’s almost too aggressive. I’ve only had it a couple days but I’ll keep you updated on its performance. I’m interested in your log before and after the madness tune. That’s my next step.
 

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Several forum members reported that they needed to hit + below 5000RPM indicated on the 1-2 shift. There is a presumption of quite a bit of tach lag combined with too much power in 1st causing nanny interference. Also be ready for the shift as it comes up very fast (I think less than 1 second).

Also to avoid nanny interference don't use full throttle in 1st, especially with the stock tires. Punch it on/after the shift. My regular route lacks any place where I can safely try such a launch <sigh>.

If I want a fast launch driving around town I still do the two foot launch, but I only rev the engine to about 1100-1200 RPM since more than that is more than I want/need.
 

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Several forum members reported that they needed to hit + below 5000RPM indicated on the 1-2 shift. There is a presumption of quite a bit of tach lag combined with too much power in 1st causing nanny interference. Also be ready for the shift as it comes up very fast (I think less than 1 second).

Also to avoid nanny interference don't use full throttle in 1st, especially with the stock tires. Punch it on/after the shift. My regular route lacks any place where I can safely try such a launch <sigh>.

If I want a fast launch driving around town I still do the two foot launch, but I only rev the engine to about 1100-1200 RPM since more than that is more than I want/need.

Agree with this. I've only ever done launches maybe 3-4 times but I throttle the engine to just under 2,000 RPM and I do a quick shift from first to second. In D mode and manual shifting the car launches like a rocket. Even with the Pirelli P7 run-flats.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
you might want to time the car how you actually drive instead of how you don't - any improvement will be more meaningful that way.
Yeah, I just got back from making a few charges up to 60mph, and while I didn’t see any meaningful improvement by doing the 2.5k rpm launch in manual, I did get to thinking that, man, if this is what it takes to pull a 5sec time in this car, I don’t care about it, because I’ll never do it!

So what gives with the Kiwi3 OBD 0-60 best of 5.8sec this evening? For sure I’m not practiced at this, but to be off .8 - 1sec sounds like more than human error; I felt I had some decent runs that should have been pretty close to ideal.

It is 75°F and 50% humidity now, and was 87°/39% earlier; does that explain anything?

How accurate is a Kiwi3 for this? Should be pretty good, I think. As I said, though, a phone GPS app got me a 4.99 yesterday, which seems more in range.

I’ve been wanting more power in any case— I mixed it up with a mid-‘80s Ferrari 328 GTS tonight, and really felt marginal staying connected to it as we merged onto highway and gunned it up to 100mph; I don’t know if I could have reeled him because I hit rev limiter on 3rd (or was it 4th?) as the on ramp straightened, and only noticed as the car bogged— so I just ordered the MaxPower ECM. Hopefully that’ll get me some of the extra kick I want.

I’ll do some more runs tomorrow alternating between manual and auto, just to validate whether I suck as a pilot, and maybe try to do some Speedbox GPS runs in there, too, to see if there are any anomalies.
 

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Yeah, I just got back from making a few charges up to 60mph, and while I didn’t see any meaningful improvement by doing the 2.5k rpm launch in manual, I did get to thinking that, man, if this is what it takes to pull a 5sec time in this car, I don’t care about it, because I’ll never do it!

So what gives with the Kiwi3 OBD 0-60 best of 5.8sec this evening? For sure I’m not practiced at this, but to be off .8 - 1sec sounds like more than human error; I felt I had some decent runs that should have been pretty close to ideal.

It is 75°F and 50% humidity now, and was 87°/39% earlier; does that explain anything?

How accurate is a Kiwi3 for this? Should be pretty good, I think. As I said, though, a phone GPS app got me a 4.99 yesterday, which seems more in range.

I’ve been wanting more power in any case— I mixed it up with a mid-‘80s Ferrari 328 GTS tonight, and really felt marginal staying connected to it as we merged onto highway and gunned it up to 100mph; I don’t know if I could have reeled him because I hit rev limiter on 3rd (or was it 4th?) as the on ramp straightened, and only noticed as the car bogged— so I just ordered the MaxPower ECM. Hopefully that’ll get me some of the extra kick I want.

I’ll do some more runs tomorrow alternating between manual and auto, just to validate whether I suck as a pilot, and maybe try to do some Speedbox GPS runs in there, too, to see if there are any anomalies.
I think if you want measurement accuracy you need to visit a drag strip, although that will still factor in your reaction time to the lights.

I wonder how the car mags do their measurements and how accurate they are.

IMO, the main use for making a measurement is so that you can measure again after a mod to see if it made things better or worse. For this purpose only the measurement consistency matters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I think if you want measurement accuracy you need to visit a drag strip, although that will still factor in your reaction time to the lights.

I wonder how the car mags do their measurements and how accurate they are.

IMO, the main use for making a measurement is so that you can measure again after a mod to see if it made things better or worse. For this purpose only the measurement consistency matters.
Hmm, I've been to the drag strip before, and the printouts don't clock 0-60 times that I've seen, so I don't think that'd help me.

I'm thinking that the Kiwi3 OBD scanner linked to DashCommand app should be pretty accurate because it's reading the speedo signal, and I've verified the speedo is pretty accurate using a variety of GPS devices, including my iPhoneX, an Escort 9500ix radar detector (via overspeed warnings), and my Wahoo Bolt bike computer. Indicated speeds always seem to line up fine.

So then why does the Kiwi3/DC app combo seem to reporting 0-60 about 1 second slower than the GPS app and .9 secs slower than mfg rating?
 

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Best way to record would probably be to strap a camera to the car that looks at the speedo and extract the time from some video editing software
 

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What is this powerbraking thing?
 

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What is this powerbraking thing?
Hold the brake to the floor, then gently lay on the gas pedal until the RPMs are at about 2500. Then, very quickly, release the brake all the way and mash down the gas pedal. This lets the turbo spool up and provides a nice, hard launch. Works best on Q4 models.
 

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Hold the brake to the floor, then gently lay on the gas pedal until the RPMs are at about 2500. Then, very quickly, release the brake all the way and mash down the gas pedal. This lets the turbo spool up and provides a nice, hard launch. Works best on Q4 models.



Thanks! I have to try that. I've got summer rubber and perf pack on my Q4. This should be fun.
 

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Speeds are almost always higher in the presence of law enforcement.
 
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Hmm, I've been to the drag strip before, and the printouts don't clock 0-60 times that I've seen, so I don't think that'd help me.

I'm thinking that the Kiwi3 OBD scanner linked to DashCommand app should be pretty accurate because it's reading the speedo signal, and I've verified the speedo is pretty accurate using a variety of GPS devices, including my iPhoneX, an Escort 9500ix radar detector (via overspeed warnings), and my Wahoo Bolt bike computer. Indicated speeds always seem to line up fine.

So then why does the Kiwi3/DC app combo seem to reporting 0-60 about 1 second slower than the GPS app and .9 secs slower than mfg rating?
The problem with the OBD reader is that it is NOT getting the wheel sensor signal. The wheel sensor signal is connected to your brake controller. Your brake controller generates the speedo signal from that and sends it on the CAN bus whenever it can get around to it. This adds a lot of variability into the measurement.

In comparison a GPS based unit is guessing when the car has started moving. Even if it uses an accelerometer to determine when the car has started moving there are issues with determining when the vehicle has reached 60 MPH.

A precision accelerometer should be sufficient to make an accurate measurement, but you might not like the cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
The problem with the OBD reader is that it is NOT getting the wheel sensor signal. The wheel sensor signal is connected to your brake controller. Your brake controller generates the speedo signal from that and sends it on the CAN bus whenever it can get around to it. This adds a lot of variability into the measurement.

In comparison a GPS based unit is guessing when the car has started moving. Even if it uses an accelerometer to determine when the car has started moving there are issues with determining when the vehicle has reached 60 MPH.

A precision accelerometer should be sufficient to make an accurate measurement, but you might not like the cost.
As I said, I don’t feel whatever potential variability there is in the speedo signal is being realized, because it seems accurate against the GPS verifications I mentioned earlier.

The GPS app I used did not “guess” when I started moving; it launches the clock with a countdown timer. If the driver goes early (as determined by the accelerometers in iPhoneX), it faults out. The iPhone X accelerometers are very accurate so I don’t think I need better in that regard, but yeah, it’s **** expensive!

A “precision accelerometer” alone would not be sufficient to make the measurement, though, would it? How would it know when I hit 60mph?
 
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