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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 2015 M4 and thinking about a Giulia QV. Anyone make that switch?

I've driven the QV and liked it, but my only concerns are as follows:


  1. Transmission - The DCT in the M4 is my favorite part about the car. Shifts are lightning fast and I drive it in manual mode 90% of the time - mostly using the center console shifter. Driving the QV I didn't feel that experience was as satisfying.

  2. No HUD - I know it may seem minor, but after living with the HUD for three years, I think it would be tough giving it up.

  3. Interior quality - the plastics inside seem very low rent given the price for admission.

Feedback is appreciated. If I don't go QV I'll probably go M3 ZCP.

Thanks!
 

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1. DCT is tough to beat. That said, ZF8 in QV is maybe the best example of that transmission used in so many luxury sedans. Only you can answer if the improved overall handling/steering of the QV can add up to bring more enjoyment than perhaps slightly slower response of 8-speed auto vs DCT in the M3/4.

2. I'd think you could get used to no HUD

3. M3/4 has never been the pinnacle of interior quality/materials either. QV & M3 both take a back seat to MB & Audi in that regard, IMO. BMW/Alfa both do minimalist very well, and that's what I appreciate more in a sports car.

M3 Competition is QV's closest competition, IMO. I'd drive both back-to-back if you could. Overall, the improved dynamics of the QV would tip the scales in that cars favor for me, IMO. Let us know what you decide!
 

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Went from a manual base model M3. I love manuals, but also can appreciate good auto boxes. I had PDK and SMG, both are fantastic. This Auto is not like the autos of old and so much closer to the PDK/SMG experience. It is lazy off boost, but that's an engine problem and not the auto. What I look for are the quickness of shifts (check), appropriateness of gearing (check), manual mode means manual ( 1/2 check). Why the 1/2 check? well if you are in certain modes, the lever does not let you shift up a gear at too low a rev. It seems to be around 2000RPM before it will let you shift to the next gear up (D mode). I got used to it after figuring out I didn't have bad paddles. The tactile sensation of the paddles is quite good too, less video game and more connected to an actual box feeling IMO.

Loved the HUD on my old E60 M5, but not a deal breaker for me. I have not experienced the newer versions. It is a nice to have, but definitely not a must have for me.

Interior is below the competition in terms of quality, but not too far below. I have the leather dash and stitching with Sparco seats. Love the look and the feel. CF steering wheel is top notch as well with suede, CF, aluminium and leather. Feels way better than the M3 did. The door material, window switches, hard plastics feel sorry in comparison. Gear shifter looks like my X5, but with that hard plastic ridge, biggest let down interior wise. Aluminium shift paddles feel so gorgeous, it makes up for it again. What I am getting at is that the interior has its good and bad points compared with the competition. When its good, it is awesome, when its bad, it almost sucks. The driver experience made up a lot of it for me, and helped push me over the edge. I can see a few people who are more inclined towards the non driver aspects be pushed the other way.

In the end, I summed up the Alfa as a very sensual, seductive 500hp sedan. It spoke to me in a way the M3 should have but never did. I hated the M3 exhaust, and no matter what anyone ever says, it does not sound good, and never sounded good. I NEVER redlined the M3, EVER. It sounded awful at higher revs, and the fact that you have to "supplement" the engine noise with the stereo system should tell you something. In contrast, I have redlined the Alfa a few times just enjoying the sound (still not as good as the 8500RPM of the V10), and that was what really pushed me in this direction, **** the naysayers, **** the quality/reliability fears.
 

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so I take it that your F83 is an non-ZCP car?
have you driven a ZCP yet?, because that is what the comparison should be between, QV & M3ZCP.

**Transmission choice: purely personal, there are those who still like to row the boat, and while my QV shifts faster than if it were manual, I still like manuals...same can be said for DCT vs. ZF8....the ZF is great but can't be compared to a DCT for quickness. which shifts smoother? and the gearing of the shifts is what can be compared...again personal choice really.
**HUD...had it in a few of my BMW's was already in them...HATED it...always turned it off when I drove those cars...again personal choice...
**Overall....I like my QV better than my F80. My F80 was one of the first (non-ZCP) so I expected the QV to smoke it....the ZCP M3 is apples to apples...and frankly I liked the M3 better than the M4...comes down to if you want a coupe` or not....M4 is a big car (like many other coupes now)...
drive them both back to back best way really...
Good Luck, let us know what you end up with
 

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... concerns ...


  1. Transmission ...
  2. No HUD ...
  3. Interior quality...

I don't drink red wine. Even when somebody offers it, i don' drink it. Because i don't like it.
So i don't buy red wine. And i do not ask other people if they'd drink it - i am old enough to know what is good for me.



The same with cars.


Best regards
Waldek
 

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I owned a '15 M3. What a rolling piece of turd that car was compared to other M cars I've owned and the Giulia. My QF addressed many issues that the M was lacking...
1. The exhaust note from the M3 reminded me of an industrial cement mixer. Those turbos sapped any soul from the sound. The QF exhaust speaks for itself and is one of the only cars I've owned where I did not feel needed an aftermarket option.
2. HUD on the M3 was nice but once you placed it into M dynamic mode most of the information disappears. If you want good HUD system buy a Lexus.
3. The M interior fit and finish is nicer but they don't offer carbon fiber seats and steering wheel and instead give you get cheap light up M logos on the front of the seat.

4. DCT is nice, but if you want a smooth shifter, again Lexus offers a better 10 speed transmission.

5. The chassis setup on the M3 was horrible. Too stiff and overpowered by too much horsepower. At WOT it was squirrley to a point that you have to leave it in M dynamic mode which was power sapping.
If you want creature comforts and power then there is no comparison, buy a C63. I've walked by my Ferraris on many occasions to drive the QF instead for the pure enjoyment.
 

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I owned a 2015 M3 and on the points you are asking about:

Transmission: I don’t think the dual clutch transmission in M3 is better than the 8 speed ZF in the QV. The responsiveness is very similar. Add to the equation the steering mounted (Ferrari parts bin) paddle shifters with sweet tactile feel and I think QV wins by a whisker. The dual clutch in M3 is no PDK, thats for sure.

HUD: I do think having a HUD in performance cars is helpful. It keeps your eyes where they need to be and you know exactly when to upshift before hitting the rev limiter. This is the only feature I wish QV had.

Interior Quality: I keep hearing about the plastics in the QV. I am not a materials engineer (just an engineer) but I think the full leather, Alcantara, carbon fiber treatment in QV is miles ahead of the rather bland M3 interior. There might be a couple of plastic surfaces that could be better but overall this is an easy victory for QV (in my mind).

Both M3 and QV are very good performance cars. M3 used to be the benchmark but since Italians caught the M-division guys snoozing a bit, for now QV is the new benchmark of driving-experience in the 4 door segment. I love it.
 

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I'm looking to see the "hard plastics" in my Quad that make it "low rent" ....alls I see is Leather , Carbon Fiber, Alcantara, and beautiful contrast stitching and I'm staring square at a steering wheel that is a work of art .....Dino
 

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There are a lot of people who owned M3s, and for different reasons. I've been a member of the F80 forum community for a very long time and have seen how there are a lot of different stripes of M3 owners:

1- BMW Fanatics
2- People who want the most sporty luxury car they can get for the price
3- People who recognize and value the prestige behind the M3/M4 nameplate and care greatly about image

I would say that I fit into the second category and that the vast majority of M3/M4 owners fit into category 1 or 3. So take this with a grain of salt:

Your concerns are DCT, HUD, and Interior quality.

DCT - Despite what you might read here, DCT is simply superior. That is, if you are someone who uses the DCT in the M3 in manual mode frequently. If you are not, and you tend to leave it in Auto mode, the ZF in the Alfa is better. When I leave my car in autoshift mode, the shifting from 0-100mph is so seamless and fast it almost feels like I'm in an electric car. But in manual mode, I am often frustrated by the inconsistent paddle-to-engine response. Please note, I am not talking about slow/fast shift times, I am just saying that no matter what I do I can't help but think that I am throwing off the balance of the car somehow by shifting manually in the Alfa. I don't know if it is due to excessive engine braking or what, but the Alfa just doesn't seem to like downshifts as much as my M3 did. THAT SAID - this is the only non-DCT auto transmission I have ever driven that is worth a ****. The Mercedes, GM, and Ford fake-DCT transmissions are AWFUL compared to the one in the Alfa.

HUD - Honestly, I could care less. I used the HUD in my M3 all the time but in my Alfa it took less than 24 hours to get over it. Just not a big deal.

Interior - I had a full Merino interior in my M3 and it was nice. It's better than the Alfa's, but the Alfa is dynamically a superior car in just about every single other way that this was a concession that did not bother me in the least bit. The Alfa has better seats and a better driving position.

So, back to my original point about the 3 different types of M3 owners. If you are a true car enthusiast and care about driving dynamics above all else, I have absolutely zero hesitation in claiming that the Alfa is the superior car. If you are NOT this kind of M3 owner (and there is no shame in admitting to oneself as such), the Alfa is NOT the car for you.

Just my .02.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
"Gear shifter looks like my X5, but with that hard plastic ridge, biggest let down interior wise."

Does anyone know if the Alfa aftermarket carbon fiber gearshift handle helps this shortcoming? It felt really cheap to me and is stuck in my head.
 

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Does anyone know if the Alfa aftermarket carbon fiber gearshift handle helps this shortcoming? It felt really cheap to me and is stuck in my head.
If things like the look and feel of the pastics on the shifer are important to you, then I would say you should listen to the voice in your head. One should always pay attention to that inner voice. QV might not be the right car for you and these kinds of things might annoy you more, later on, if you ignore them now. Not everything has to be everyone's cup of tea. And as you can see, even among prior M3 owners, there is a vast difference in their perception of these cars and reasons for buying them.

Personally, I buy/own cars for the visceral feeling. The enjoyment of driving. Carving back roads (frequently) and canyons (whenever possible). Finding open roads and going wide open throttle and letting the engine scream/sing all the way. I really do not care about plastics and cosmetics etc. For me its really about how the car makes me feel.

Listen to your inner voice and you'll be happy :)
Good luck !
 

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If you don't like the transmission, then it'll probably be difficult to convince you otherwise. It's one of those areas that just has to feel right for you to really enjoy it. Personally, I've owned both DCT (E92 M3) and PDK (991 Turbo S) and can say this transmission feels just as quick and visceral to me. I would be more worried with BMW now going to standard autos, that the dct could become more and more difficult and expensive to service, repair, etc. (even though it is generally reliable).

HUD - When I test drove an F80 comp pack with HUD, it was utterly useless to me since I wear polarized sunglasses and couldn't see any of it. I guess it'd be fine at night though but it's tech I could not care less about having.

Plastics - The interior to me is a work of art compared to the overly busy design and slapped on iPad in the M3's interior. Also, everything is relative - heck, take a look at brand new $200k GT3s with their full rubber dashes as standard and tell me the QV looks cheap in comparison with its leather dash and contrast stitching everywhere.
 

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If things like the look and feel of the pastics on the shifer are important to you, then I would say you should listen to the voice in your head. One should always pay attention to that inner voice. QV might not be the right car for you and these kinds of things might annoy you more, later on, if you ignore them now. Not everything has to be everyone's cup of tea. And as you can see, even among prior M3 owners, there is a vast difference in their perception of these cars and reasons for buying them.

Personally, I buy/own cars for the visceral feeling. The enjoyment of driving. Carving back roads (frequently) and canyons (whenever possible). Finding open roads and going wide open throttle and letting the engine scream/sing all the way. I really do not care about plastics and cosmetics etc. For me its really about how the car makes me feel.

Listen to your inner voice and you'll be happy :)
Good luck !
I am not coming from the BMW world. I did want to get one but my spouse did not want the car he sees everywhere. He fell in love with the Carbon Fiber on the Sparcos and was wooooed by the brakes. My first impression of both was “really:frown2: Sorry but I come from a leather world and not a velour and carbon fiber world and had zero appreciation and was “settling”.........Fast Forward....I love the carbon fiber and i love the big ass brakes and everything else about the car. There is a ton of leather in this car so I am sorry I struggle with the complaints on the shifter. The controls seems sturdy enough to me and I am picky. I love the invisible display and I would go postal if i saw fingerprints on a touch screen.

I think they could have use Black Leather instead of the hard plastic but I honestly am not sure stylistically what would have worked. So I thought the things that would bug me ended up not bothering me at all. I love the car. Not sorry I didn’t get the M3 which is where we would have headed. I am not sure the price point between a fully loaded QV all safety, CF, and CCM would run next to the performance package on the M3. If they are the same price and same performance that would be a tough decision.

We have met up with M3 drivers and they appreciate the car and some are waiting and will take the dip the next go around they do seem to miss not having CCM
 

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I don’t have much to add to the Mcar ownership experience vs the QV thing, having only test driven some of the M’s, but the ZF is the first auto I’ve ever really found good enough to make me happy I didn’t have a choice for a manual. If I was given a choice of getting a manual I would have probably let my emotions get in the way even though I knew from a practical standpoint I drive in a fair bit of traffic and would have regretted it on a semi-daily basis. Also considering how elegantly simple the new ZF is when you look at how it works and the ability to replace the torque converter with wet multi-plate clutch packs or electric motors I wonder if semi-auto’s day’s are numbered...
 

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Compared to my neighbor's E90 M3 sedan, the QV is quieter inside and outside (unless you floor it), has softer but I think more supportive seats, softer ride overall for daily use, but able to maintain composure in curves when needed, a better transmission, similar hood design with venting but without the fake power bulge, larger tailpipes, certainly more spoiler and rocker panel finning, same simple dash except appearing '90s (really '60s) retro versus teutonic rectilinear design. Its faster but then again its 10 years newer. Compared with the current M3/4 the absence of a "stuck on" tablet/screen sold me in ten seconds. Mark my words these tablets will be passe in 5 years and all these current luxury cars are going to look idiotic pretty soon. Arguably an example of one of the worst interior ergonomic executions and then copycat manouvers in recent decades, but I digress.
 

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I love manual transmissions, but I feel they are now a thing of the past. We have various manual 60s classic cars and they are a pleasure to drive. I also have a 2006 Z4 M Coupe, which only came manual and I love it. It suits that car. But it terms of performance, manuals are done. The ZF8 is quick. I first drove it in my mums F Type V8S and couldn't believe how quick the 1-2 shifts were. They're tire shredding fast. The same is true with it in the Alfa QV. The power just keeps coming and shredding tires into 3rd is just bizarre. So the performance of it versus the DCT and PDK is void. The only difference is the sensation of shifting. I don't use the gear selector for shifting. I like to keep my hands on the wheel and shift via the paddles. I don't have an issue with the feel of the selector, but I will be replacing the black piece with carbon fiber (on my Christmas list) as it looks a lot better.

as far as HUD. I've never had it in a car. My dad just got it in his Range Rover Sport SVR and he likes it as a convenience feature, but he wouldn't have ordered it. It just happened to be on the car he bought. I tend to keep the yellow shift lights in my peripheral vision as the revs climb fast on this car. So I could see the benefit, but it's not on my wish list. A larger reverse camera screen is though....(don't shoot!)

I have not noticed an interior quality issue. The stuff at eye level looks and feels good and I don't really pay attention to the plastic on the lower half of the doors. I have not been in the latest M3/4 to give a fair comparison. They were only a brief alternative to the Alfa in my mind. I see too many M3/4s to want one, and it's really hard to argue with the performance of the QV.

At the end of the day, you have to pick the car that you feel suits you and your needs. We can all give opinions all day. There are valid arguments for both M3/4 and QV. While they are the same, they are oh so very different.

Which one makes you smile?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
OP here again...

Really appreciate all the feedback. I'm 85-90% sure that the QV will be my choice. Unfortunately I'm the kind of person that allows the 10-15% to claw at the back of my mind.

I will say this - I had no reservations when I purchased my F80 M4 and I have loved the car (regardless of what others say about the shortcomings). However, I just can't see buying new M3/M4 with ZCP since I've already had my current one for almost three years.

So, I'll continue to mull it over and welcome any additional thoughts...
 
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