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Looks like an office building above the museum. Is Arese Alfa's global administrative HQ, @Old Giulia Guy ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
My passion for the past 25+ years.
Vehicle Land vehicle Tire Car Wheel
If you notice the Side Markers & original Glasurit Graphite Alfa 23 color it appears that this car was originally to be delivered in Europe. A number of years ago, Elvira (at Alfa Historique) told me the car was scheduled to the Netherlands. The current Certificate de Originale says the car was delivered to Beverly Ca. ?GI?, ?Tourist Purschase? who knows. I do know the car was used as a daily driver by an So. Cal Giulia restorer for 17 years. For sure we trace over 50 years in California. Can warm it up at over 7000k, cruise as smooth as silk at 80 under 4000K and join with the Ferrari's and Lambo's coming back from Monterey Concorso (seemingly, on occasion, at 100+ with revs nowhere near red line :sneaky:).
Corkscrew @ Laguna Seca
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a future, of which is being flushed down the sewer with the worst marketing plan and execution that I have seen in my 50+ years in my history of 50+ years "Marketing for Productivity".
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
Sorry to get back into this conversation so late.
Was in Monterey for Historic Week and was supposed to be at the Folk Tale Winery event with my Pininfarina 1965 Giulia Spider Veloce (Euro Delivery) but banged up a knee Wed night and couldn't work the clutch for a few days.
We all seem to agree that the history of Alfa Romeo created a prestige based by first building an outstanding performance car, then put a beatiful body on it. Mass production was not its best foot forward (Alfa Sud sound familiar).
In my 50 or so years involved in international apparel production, sales,mass marketing and managing for profitablility, I have seen this story before. My luck was to work in a series of leading mass marketing corporations at the time they reached there heights while still being developed by their original owners and watching them falling apart within a decade or two after the Scions took over. Look familiar.
The common thread of these companies original successes was a management technique referred to "Theory Y Management" (Theory Y managers have an optimistic, positive opinion of their people, use a decentralized, participative management style). This management style assumes workers are happy to work on their own initiative. This was the antithisis of "Bossism" (Managing from the top down). EVERY EMPLOYEE knew their responsibilities and HAD THE AUTHORITY expected to make the decisions required to achieve them (from maintenance to Sr. Mgrs).

Concerning my off premise analyses of Stellantis Alfa Romeo division is that it is a company with lots of Managing Directors and Managers (all sorts of titles) with varieties of responsibility but, only when you get up to the heights of Jean-Philippe Imparato is there authority.
The attempt to re-establish the Alfa Romeo Marque has been an embarrasing adventure. Missed opportunity after missed opportunity to bring the name and prestige image to a country (Largest Economy In The World) that has not had a prescence for two decades - a full generation.
Examples:
The state of California is the Fifth largest economy IN THE WORLD - Larry Dominque spends a short time there and has an interview with Jay Leno (who didn't have, the last time I was at his garage, an Alfa Romeo), while the Petersen Automotive Museum (Rated by CNN, Octane, and Top Gear as “the world's greatest automotive museum”) I believe has not yet heard from him. The museum is scheduled to receive over 200,000 visitors a year.
In 2018 the Petersen launched "The Porsche Effect" which, during its presentation attracted around 200,000 visitors (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/porsche-effect-petersen-automotive-museum-gallery/) and currently has a Luftgekuhlt presentation (https://luftgekuhlt.com/news/2019/4/17/air-meets-water-the-petersen). More Porsches are sold in Ca. than any country in the world except China. They have a track in LA for Porsche owners experience.
BMW exports more cars manufactured in the US than any US car company and they offer BMW Owners Experience by the local BMW Owners Club. Alfa Romeo of So. Ca. has been on track in So.Ca. for 50 years offering Alfa Owners Experience - have you heard from anyone at Stellantis.
Concorso Italiano 2021 in Monterey drew an audience around 10,000 to walk around the hundreds of Alfa Romeos, Fiats, Lancias, Maseratis, Lamborghini, Ferraris, et. al. (www.concorso.com). Not a sign from Stellantis - not even a small sponsor ad in the Glossy Event Mag.
Best of France & Italy annual event in Los Angeles (400 French & Italian cars over 25 years event) presented over 100 Alfa Romeos, and a Fiat feature among the few hundred cars. Leno was there with an antique Fire Engine - no sign of any of the local dealers or anyone from Stellantis.
We, Alfa Owner Club of So Ca, have offered dealers "Welcome Wagon" gift to present to new buyers (free to the dealers). These are mostly disregarded. Include free Lunch Time laps at the tracks, welcome to join in on upcoming events - Road Trips, Wine Tours, etc. We offer to give their salespeople free training at the track, offer them to bring Press Cars to track events where we also have Porsche, BMW, Miata, VW, Mustangs, Camaros, etc. competing in Time Trials. We have offered our Instructors to give salepeople historic information about the brand that they are selling and videos to be played at the dealers sports TV (not sport games currently be played) Have you been contacted?

Have been trying to contact anyone in Alfa Management - especially Larry Dominique. Anyone have an email - maybe for his admin assist? Vehicle Car Land vehicle Grille Vehicle registration plate
Car Vehicle Grille Automotive lighting Hood

Asked for press credentials to cover Alfa activities in Ca. and immediately started getting Press Releases, but no contact name, no password, no information for submissions. NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE A DESCISION.
 

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Agreed. Why reintroduce a brand only to abandon it. And FCA/Stellantis has done this twice in the US. Apparently nothing was learned from the FIAT debacle.

On the apparel side, I worked for Champion years ago. Once a proud company on playing fields and college campuses, I now see it as a loss leader at Target, Kohl's and Dick's.
 

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I believe that the very maximum of 250,000 - 300,000 worldwide past, current and future owners of Alfa Romeo's did not, do not and will not need any kind of massive advertising, auto shows, events, meetings and all that stuff that BWM, Audi, Mercedes Benz and Porsche do. The Germans do that because they want to sell >3,000,000 cars worldwide every year, including California. These 300,000 Alfisti, (IMHO, the biggest volume that Alfa Romeo will have worldwide), have other ways to know the brand, I bet that 90% of them already know it, very well, and will buy an Alfa Romeo when either they can or when the time is right.

The cars and cars industry extensive experience, the credentials, the worldwide results and the passion that both Imparato and Tavares have demonstrated tell me that Alfa Romeo will continue with the same success (as a very small and niche brand) of the past 110 years for the next 100 years.
 

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I believe that the very maximum of 250,000 - 300,000 worldwide past, current and future owners of Alfa Romeo's did not, do not and will not need any kind of massive advertising, auto shows, events, meetings and all that stuff that BWM, Audi, Mercedes Benz and Porsche do. The Germans do that because they want to sell >3,000,000 cars worldwide every year, including California. These 300,000 Alfisti, (IMHO, the biggest volume that Alfa Romeo will have worldwide), have other ways to know the brand, I bet that 90% of them already know it, very well, and will buy an Alfa Romeo when either they can or when the time is right.

The cars and cars industry extensive experience, the credentials, the worldwide results and the passion that both Imparato and Tavares have demonstrated tell me that Alfa Romeo will continue with the same success (as a very small and niche brand) of the past 110 years for the next 100 years.
That begs the follow-up question - How can Alfa become basically self-sustainable and not be a money drain for the corporate mothership? It's not upscale enough to generate enough profit to survive in such small numbers.

The only answer is to do platform sharing with the rest of the corporate siblings, which many people here are labeling as a bad idea and dismissing out of hand without even giving Alfa a chance to prove it right or wrong.
 

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That begs the follow-up question - How can Alfa become basically self-sustainable and not be a money drain for the corporate mothership? It's not upscale enough to generate enough profit to survive in such small numbers.

The only answer is to do platform sharing with the rest of the corporate siblings, which many people here are labeling as a bad idea and dismissing out of hand without even giving Alfa a chance to prove it right or wrong.
Wasn’t Alfa doing the platform sharing by birthing new Jeeps?
 

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I agree. Platform sharing is already in place (every where, not only in the cars industry). It has happened successfully in the past and will evidently continue to happen in the future. Even sharing the same platform, a Jeep is a Jeep and it is not an Alfa Romeo, or vice-versa. So, an Alfa Romeo will be a truly Alfa Romeo, and it will not be a Peugeot or a Citroen.

I tend to understand that at >240K cars per year globally, Alfa Romeo may be self-sustainable and not be a money drain for Stellantis. I am not sure that 240K cars per year isn't enough to generate enough profit to survive. It happened for a century so, it may be validated. Again, this is only my opinion and it is not financially data based (I do not have those figures).
 

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That begs the follow-up question - How can Alfa become basically self-sustainable and not be a money drain for the corporate mothership? It's not upscale enough to generate enough profit to survive in such small numbers.

The only answer is to do platform sharing with the rest of the corporate siblings, which many people here are labeling as a bad idea and dismissing out of hand without even giving Alfa a chance to prove it right or wrong.
You are correct. They do not have sufficient margins to sell incredibly low volumes and still be kept open by the mothership.

The concern, as I read it, is that other platforms/ideologies are inferior to the Alfa way of doing things. So, to keep the essence of Alfa, the platform cannot be a hand-me-down, especially from Frankish or Germanic origins (granted Milano is technically very Germanic). Italian design, Italian motor, Italian chassis, (German transmission, German rear LSD, Austrian Front Diff and Austrian Q4 system are ok though?), and born in an Italian factory by Italian workers. Viva l'Italia. (I'm an Italian-American so this isn't a slight to Itay).

Wasn’t Alfa doing the platform sharing by birthing new Jeeps?
Yes, it appears that we are fine with AR loaning other brands her technology, just not the other way.
 

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You are correct. They do not have sufficient margins to sell incredibly low volumes and still be kept open by the mothership.

The concern, as I read it, is that other platforms/ideologies are inferior to the Alfa way of doing things. So, to keep the essence of Alfa, the platform cannot be a hand-me-down, especially from Frankish or Germanic origins (granted Milano is technically very Germanic). Italian design, Italian motor, Italian chassis, (German transmission, German rear LSD, Austrian Front Diff and Austrian Q4 system are ok though?), and born in an Italian factory by Italian workers. Viva l'Italia. (I'm an Italian-American so this isn't a slight to Itay).


Yes, it appears that we are fine with AR loaning other brands her technology, just not the other way.
Alfa Romeo(at least to me) is a "race first" brand. (Fiat is economy, Maserati is luxury, Ferrari is supercar).

The Giorgio platform was developed by people from a more performance oriented background for Alfa. According to the automotive press, they did a fantastic job, and from a customer perspective it was priced competitively. Had Fiat made a platform for Alfa instead, and tried to sell it for just as much, it wouldnt have had such a great critical response IMHO.

And hence it is baffling to me that the new overlords are so eager to replace one of the best platforms on the market, with something engineered by another budget brand (and publicly say that the reason is because Giorgio is "expensive"), instead of trying to leverage and exploit that investment & competitive advantage as much as possible.

As a customer, do you want to hear that the company decided to go with a budget platform and package it as a premium product? Or would you prefer to hear that the company made the best possible platform, which although expensive to produce, is priced competitively?

Porsche and Audi seem "closer" to Alfa's ethos than anything in PSA's current portfolio. If they like/admire Alfa as much as they claim, they should have been eager to use stuff developed by Alfa in the PSA brands, instead of the other way around, right? IMHO

Cheers
 

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As a customer, do you want to hear that the company decided to go with a budget platform and package it as a premium product? Or would you prefer to hear that the company made the best possible platform, which although expensive to produce, is priced competitively?
That overly expensive platform for an ICE, would require additional costs to convert to a skateboard, which would force the selling price for their BEVs to be higher than the competition (or eat the cost and reduce margins). Both are bad scenarios.

Customers want to pay less for more, but you can't have it all. There is a price to be paid. Higher MSRP or a low margin company who will not be able to support future innovation.

We also have no idea how good Giorgio would be handling the extra weight, etc of a skateboard battery pack. Perhaps Giorgio was not the best and even Alfa would have changed their own minds down the road.
 

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That overly expensive platform for an ICE, would require additional costs to convert to a skateboard, which would force the selling price for their BEVs to be higher than the competition (or eat the cost and reduce margins). Both are bad scenarios.

Customers want to pay less for more, but you can't have it all. There is a price to be paid. Higher MSRP or a low margin company who will not be able to support future innovation.

We also have no idea how good Giorgio would be handling the extra weight, etc of a skateboard battery pack. Perhaps Giorgio was not the best and even Alfa would have changed their own minds down the road.
I wasn't implying they electrify Giorgio; i do not know how big an undertaking that would be. (Although someone did post a slide of some old plans to make it PHEV, which we can assume have been cancelled).

I meant they could:
1 Continue selling it in its current form with minor updates while trying to reduce costs instead of tossing it out completely. 2030 is ~8 years away.
2 Improve economies of scale by putting it in more models across their 14 brands

But who knows, maybe current demand doesnt justify having a production line set aside for it, and they would rather use it to make the new stuff.
 

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I wasn't implying they electrify Giorgio; i do not know how big an undertaking that would be. (Although someone did post a slide of some old plans to make it PHEV, which we can assume have been cancelled).

I meant they could:
1 Continue selling it in its current form with minor updates while trying to reduce costs instead of tossing it out completely. 2030 is ~8 years away.
2 Improve economies of scale by putting it in more models across their 14 brands

But who knows, maybe current demand doesnt justify having a production line set aside for it, and they would rather use it to make the new stuff.
1) I think they will continue to produce the current Giulia until its replacement is ready. They aren't 100% electric until 2027. So you have 5 years of ICE/Hybrid until then, and maybe a first BEV in 2024.

2) That would require investing money in new models. Manufacturers are reducing investment in new ICE cars. They are just continuing to build the same models (facelifts) or realizing old plans (GC/Grecale) until they stop.
 

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As a customer, do you want to hear that the company decided to go with a budget platform and package it as a premium product?
As a customer, I don't want to make any decision or even judgement based on hearing anything. I want to test drive the car for myself to see if it's any good.

Or would you prefer to hear that the company made the best possible platform, which although expensive to produce, is priced competitively?
And that goes back to my original point. Alfa isn't sustainable to do that on a competitive price point on such low volume.
 
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Discussion Starter · #116 ·
Sorry to get back into this conversation so late.
Was in Monterey for Historic Week and was supposed to be at the Folk Tale Winery event with my Pininfarina 1965 Giulia Spider Veloce (Euro Delivery) but banged up a knee Wed night and couldn't work the clutch for a few days.
We all seem to agree that the history of Alfa Romeo created a prestige based by first building an outstanding performance car, then put a beatiful body on it. Mass production was not its best foot forward (Alfa Sud sound familiar).
In my 50 or so years involved in international apparel production, sales,mass marketing and managing for profitablility, I have seen this story before. My luck was to work in a series of leading mass marketing corporations at the time they reached there heights while still being developed by their original owners and watching them falling apart within a decade or two after the Scions took over. Look familiar.
The common thread of these companies original successes was a management technique referred to "Theory Y Management" (Theory Y managers have an optimistic, positive opinion of their people, use a decentralized, participative management style). This management style assumes workers are happy to work on their own initiative. This was the antithisis of "Bossism" (Managing from the top down). EVERY EMPLOYEE knew their responsibilities and HAD THE AUTHORITY expected to make the decisions required to achieve them (from maintenance to Sr. Mgrs).

Concerning my off premise analyses of Stellantis Alfa Romeo division is that it is a company with lots of Managing Directors and Managers (all sorts of titles) with varieties of responsibility but, only when you get up to the heights of Jean-Philippe Imparato is there authority.
The attempt to re-establish the Alfa Romeo Marque has been an embarrasing adventure. Missed opportunity after missed opportunity to bring the name and prestige image to a country (Largest Economy In The World) that has not had a prescence for two decades - a full generation.
Examples:
The state of California is the Fifth largest economy IN THE WORLD - Larry Dominque spends a short time there and has an interview with Jay Leno (who didn't have, the last time I was at his garage, an Alfa Romeo), while the Petersen Automotive Museum (Rated by CNN, Octane, and Top Gear as “the world's greatest automotive museum”) I believe has not yet heard from him. The museum is scheduled to receive over 200,000 visitors a year.
In 2018 the Petersen launched "The Porsche Effect" which, during its presentation attracted around 200,000 visitors (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/porsche-effect-petersen-automotive-museum-gallery/) and currently has a Luftgekuhlt presentation (https://luftgekuhlt.com/news/2019/4/17/air-meets-water-the-petersen). More Porsches are sold in Ca. than any country in the world except China. They have a track in LA for Porsche owners experience.
BMW exports more cars manufactured in the US than any US car company and they offer BMW Owners Experience by the local BMW Owners Club. Alfa Romeo of So. Ca. has been on track in So.Ca. for 50 years offering Alfa Owners Experience - have you heard from anyone at Stellantis.
Concorso Italiano 2021 in Monterey drew an audience around 10,000 to walk around the hundreds of Alfa Romeos, Fiats, Lancias, Maseratis, Lamborghini, Ferraris, et. al. (www.concorso.com). Not a sign from Stellantis - not even a small sponsor ad in the Glossy Event Mag.
Best of France & Italy annual event in Los Angeles (400 French & Italian cars over 25 years event) presented over 100 Alfa Romeos, and a Fiat feature among the few hundred cars. Leno was there with an antique Fire Engine - no sign of any of the local dealers or anyone from Stellantis.
We, Alfa Owner Club of So Ca, have offered dealers "Welcome Wagon" gift to present to new buyers (free to the dealers). These are mostly disregarded. Include free Lunch Time laps at the tracks, welcome to join in on upcoming events - Road Trips, Wine Tours, etc. We offer to give their salespeople free training at the track, offer them to bring Press Cars to track events where we also have Porsche, BMW, Miata, VW, Mustangs, Camaros, etc. competing in Time Trials. We have offered our Instructors to give salepeople historic information about the brand that they are selling and videos to be played at the dealers sports TV (not sport games currently be played) Have you been contacted?

Have been trying to contact anyone in Alfa Management - especially Larry Dominique. Anyone have an email - maybe for his admin assist? View attachment 119270 View attachment 119271
Asked for press credentials to cover Alfa activities in Ca. and immediately started getting Press Releases, but no contact name, no password, no information for submissions. NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE A DESCISION.
I believe that the very maximum of 250,000 - 300,000 worldwide past, current and future owners of Alfa Romeo's did not, do not and will not need any kind of massive advertising, auto shows, events, meetings and all that stuff that BWM, Audi, Mercedes Benz and Porsche do. The Germans do that because they want to sell >3,000,000 cars worldwide every year, including California. These 300,000 Alfisti, (IMHO, the biggest volume that Alfa Romeo will have worldwide), have other ways to know the brand, I bet that 90% of them already know it, very well, and will buy an Alfa Romeo when either they can or when the time is right.

The cars and cars industry extensive experience, the credentials, the worldwide results and the passion that both Imparato and Tavares have demonstrated tell me that Alfa Romeo will continue with the same success (as a very small and niche brand) of the past 110 years for the next 100 years.
I don;t know how old my readers are, but I got my drivers license in 1954 and have had the pleasure and sorrow watching this down hill rollercoaster flop before.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the prolific prolific writer the late Pat Braden, who, during his 40 year career wrote, among his books, "Alfa Romeo Owners", "Alfa Romeo Giulia", "From Portello to Arese (a self published pocket of Alfa Romeo and the "Alfa Romeo Twin Cam Companion 1954-1994" which I will use to pass on some history we (including the Management of Stellantis) should be aware of 'as history repeats itself'.
Some comments from his prologue:
"Viewed from a strictly business perspective, Alfa's history has four eras.
1910 ...investors trying to make something of the failing Durracq ... Milan
1918 ... purchased by Niccola Romeo
1931 ... taken over by the Italian gevernment.
1987 ... sold to Fiat
If one approaches Alfa's history according to its physical plants there are three eras.
Darracq site in Milan. 1962 Alfa opened ... manufacturing facility at Arese. In 1972 Pompigliano near Naples.
Viewed from a manufacturing standpoint, Alfa's history divides neatly in two: ... hand built car before 1950 and a mass-produced car thereafter.
NONE OF THESE REVEALS THE SOURCE OF ALFA ROMEO'S GREATNESS, HOWEVER.
PEOPLE MADE ALFA GREAT. The individuals who designed...loved high-performance ... saw clearly what they must have to be outstanding,
Those people in automotive history who have cared little for the cars they produced - the "bean counter" - consistantly produce cars that are uninspiring."

It's about 20 years and we miss him.
 

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I don;t know how old my readers are, but I got my drivers license in 1954 and have had the pleasure and sorrow watching this down hill rollercoaster flop before.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the prolific prolific writer the late Pat Braden, who, during his 40 year career wrote, among his books, "Alfa Romeo Owners", "Alfa Romeo Giulia", "From Portello to Arese (a self published pocket of Alfa Romeo and the "Alfa Romeo Twin Cam Companion 1954-1994" which I will use to pass on some history we (including the Management of Stellantis) should be aware of 'as history repeats itself'.
Some comments from his prologue:
"Viewed from a strictly business perspective, Alfa's history has four eras.
1910 ...investors trying to make something of the failing Durracq ... Milan
1918 ... purchased by Niccola Romeo
1931 ... taken over by the Italian gevernment.
1987 ... sold to Fiat
If one approaches Alfa's history according to its physical plants there are three eras.
Darracq site in Milan. 1962 Alfa opened ... manufacturing facility at Arese. In 1972 Pompigliano near Naples.
Viewed from a manufacturing standpoint, Alfa's history divides neatly in two: ... hand built car before 1950 and a mass-produced car thereafter.
NONE OF THESE REVEALS THE SOURCE OF ALFA ROMEO'S GREATNESS, HOWEVER.
PEOPLE MADE ALFA GREAT. The individuals who designed...loved high-performance ... saw clearly what they must have to be outstanding,
Those people in automotive history who have cared little for the cars they produced - the "bean counter" - consistantly produce cars that are uninspiring."

It's about 20 years and we miss him.
Thanks for writing and sharing. Great information, for sure. I did not have the chance to read any of Pat Braden's books and I will try to find some of those books now. I got a lot of testimonies, history and stories about Alfa Romeo brand and cars per se from the Italian guy showed in below attached picture. He was an Alfa Romeo mechanic since he was 16 years old, who passed me not only his DNA but, the Alfa's bug, too. I actually learned to drive cars on his 1956 Alfa Romeo 1900 Super, which he kept like brand new until about 1984. Unfortunately, I will never be able to be objective about Alfa Romeo nor will ever understand an end of Alfa Romeo. Any situation for me will be simply similar to the big peaks and valleys of that extraordinary and passionate brand for the past 110 years.
 

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