Alfa Romeo Giulia Forum banner
1 - 20 of 66 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So a fellow board member here posted about how someone has come up with a electronic by-pass so that the RACE exhaust mode is on when the car is in DYNAMIC mode...so you get the throaty growl and you satisfy the scaredi-cat in you:D with all the Nanni features still on...
I wrote to them about a tune that they developed for the QV and got their response and pricing in case anyone is interested...

Celtic Tuning Quote

Thank you for your enquiry with Celtic Tuning, leaders in Electronic Engine Enhancements.

We are a global brand with a network in 20 countries worldwide and full mobile facilities in England & Wales. What sets us apart from the competition is that we are genuine software developers with the technical ability to develop bespoke software in house; whereas most other UK tuning companies are resellers of software from third party companies. Not all tuning is equal, a remap is not simply a remap, it is the end product of a lengthy development program.

All of our software is developed in our state of the art facilities with both 2WD and 4WD individual dynamometer test cells. All engine parameters are logged to ensure we provide the safest available software upgrades for your vehicle which are also fully MOT compliant.

The Alfa Romeo Giulia 2016> takes the power from 503bhp up to 555bhp and the torque from 443lb/ft up to 500lb/ft. This stage of software is designed as a software upgrade only meaning it is all within safe tolerances of the engine and drivetrain and requires no hardware modifications. For testimonials of our work please follow the link: View Testimonials.

We provide all stages of tune through to full custom setup so if you have specific requirements please just ask. On many applications we also cater for larger turbos and injector upgrades so if you are looking for ultimate performance then we have the knowledge and ability to do just that.

To provide added peace of mind for customers with vehicles still under warranty, we provide a FREE 12 month's insurance backed supplementary warranty: Download Warranty Information. Full terms and conditions apply, please see website for details.

The cost of the remap is £400.00 plus shipping for which you would need to post us your ECUs. This comes with a 14 day money back guarantee which gives you plenty of time to ensure it is exactly what you are after.


If you wish to go ahead with the remap please forward us your contact details (address, Post Code and Phone number) along with your registration and approximate mileage, and we will be in touch to arrange a booking very soon. Alternatively if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask as our technical team who will be able to answer any questions you may have.

Yours Sincerely
The Celtic Tuning Team

what I found interesting is that the boost is modest 555hp & 500/lb ft of tq......just enough to give the QV that extra Hp putting it in the realm of more potent cars...but not enough to make the chassis feel overwhelmed...having been able to drive the car much more in dry/warmer climate...it is really clear to me that the chassis is the bell of the ball here....yeah yeah yeah 500+hp don't hurt it none either...BUT for me this car's beauty is the balance and aplomb (like that word:D) of the chassis...it is just rock solid and will get silly IF YOU make it!...this car leaves me with the confidence that it will or will not do anything by surprise like some sports cars/GTs/Sports Saloons I've driven &/or owned....
as far as this tune...my only caveat...and mine only no reflection on these guys as I don't know anything really about them...is I am hesitant to pull the ECU out of my car to ship it ANYWHERE....would rather drive the car in...and then drive her home...
I'm am not old school...I am dinosaur school..I like brick & mortar....
Anywho though it might be interesting to some who are not wanting to grenade the motor with 600+ hp:grin2:
Salve
M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
I think Celtic need to really use proper terminology as I really doubt that they develop any software, what they do is calibrate existing software. They either don't understand the difference or they call software what they sell to make it sound more fancy.
Also electronic engine enhancement is a stupid term as it implies that the modification is purely electronic and harmless, I have spoke to many people that have had their cars remapped and they think that no harm can be done because its only electronics and not mechanical whilst in fact all the combustion parameters altered have a direct thermal and mechanical impact on the engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think Celtic need to really use proper terminology as I really doubt that they develop any software, what they do is calibrate existing software. They either don't understand the difference or they call software what they sell to make it sound more fancy.
Also electronic engine enhancement is a stupid term as it implies that the modification is purely electronic and harmless, I have spoke to many people that have had their cars remapped and they think that no harm can be done because its only electronics and not mechanical whilst in fact all the combustion parameters altered have a direct thermal and mechanical impact on the engine.
I agree with you 100%...my only point is that going from 505 to 555 is not a monster leap like those that are claiming 600+hp...
I too am curious about the Alfa internals....and how much they can take...
I am an N/A fellow at heart...while I have had FI cars from time to time...I have never dropped any form of FI into an N/A car...
I have gained HP by "building" and that meant changing internals etc....
personally 505hp is just plenty for me...
Salve
M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
Anyone else see this? Looks like they posted some updates on August 18th.

Celtic Tuning via Facebook said:
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 280bhp Veloce Tuned with dyno chart!
The 2.0T Giulia runs a brand-new engine with new technology which FCA has named the MultiAir 2. In basic the engine has no intake camshaft and instead the valves operate by electronically-actuated solenoids with the opening pressure delivered by oil pressure. This engine is revolutionary, it has done away with the need for butterfly valves and has therefore removed the issue of pumping losses whilst allowing unlimited control of intakes valves to work both for power and economy. The new 2.0 engine operates the Marelli MM10JA management system and it is one of the most complicated systems on the market today. We have what is known in the industry as Damos, Marelli level instruction files, and even with this aid, it’s been a very difficult car to develop on. This management system is all about control, controls to limit power in every which way possible.

The main issue for dyno purposes and producing a graph is that it is impossible to dyno this car in D mode (power mode). In N mode the gearbox controls the RPM limiter and changes around 5,900rpm whereas in D (which we can't dyno) we have removed the soft-cut limiter and made a hard-cut limiter at 6,200rpm. The dyno chart doesn’t do justice to the performance of this Giulia, due to not being able to dyno in D mode you are not seeing the true reading of this car.
283bhp (dyno) up to 319bhp
306lbft (dyno) up to 321lbft (over 30lbft in the mid range)
This power increase is of course available for the 200bhp variant also as they are 100% identical in hardware.
Check out what we can do for your Alfa Romeo Giulia @
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,910 Posts
Anyone else see this? Looks like they posted some updates on August 18th.
Interesting. Those look like changes that would make the car significantly more fun/easier to drive.

Note that the high RPM behavior is more aligned with Squadra's measurement than the estimated behavior in the 0 to 60 discussion thread.

I think somebody posted the max torque spec for the 2.0T's ZF transmission. Does anybody remember the values?

What is CF and is this supposed to be rear wheel or inferred flywheel HP?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
I just tuned my UK spec early 2017 model 200hp 2.0 engine to the Stage 2 323hp 475Nm upgrade from Celtic Tuning using their self tuning interface device eMotion 2+. Process was similar to EC tune which uses Dimsport interface, but Celtic use their own eMotion interface which was very easy to use and upload my factory file using the supplied software from a laptop. I got the tuned file within 1 hour of uploading factory file. Took me about 25 mins to complete the flash following onscreen instructions. I had flashing CEL in the first attempt. So I flashed again but this time disconnected the Seletron pedal booster and also made sure the 3 times engine overspeeds were done till the rpm bounced off the rev limiter which got rid of the flashing CEL. Figured out it was flashing due to Phonic wheel learning being incomplete without the rev limiter being hit.

Only done 10 miles but my gosh its fast and pulls solidly. Once adaptation is complete it must get even better. Feel like I have a new car. Only other mods are Remus axle back and BMC air filter. Seletron pedal booster set to Sport.

I had the EU equivalent of Madness max pro but this is in a totally different league!!

 

·
Registered
‘19 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
Joined
·
3,887 Posts
I had the EU equivalent of Madness max pro but this is in a totally different league!!
Which unit is that? I know Madness work with TMC, but I’ve never seen a MaxPower Pro ”equivalent” on their site. Or maybe the better question is how do you know it is equivalent?

Going by hardware looks and price, they seem to have a product like the MaxPower, but nothing like the MP Pro that I can see.

Also, there’s a guy in the official Burger JB4 thread who says he’s run both TMC and Madness boxes and describes there being performance difference, which jibes with what Madness say about their tune profile being unique.

Anyway, I’m just trying to understand what‘s being compared. When I moved from Maxpower to MP Pro, Ifelt the Pro was in a totally different league as well, so I just wonder.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
Which unit is that? I know Madness work with TMC, but I’ve never seen a MaxPower Pro ”equivalent” on their site. Or maybe the better question is how do you know it is equivalent?

Going by hardware looks and price, they seem to have a product like the MaxPower, but nothing like the MP Pro that I can see.

Also, there’s a guy in the official Burger JB4 thread who says he’s run both TMC and Madness boxes and describes there being performance difference, which jibes with what Madness say about their tune profile being unique.

Anyway, I’m just trying to understand what‘s being compared. When I moved from Maxpower to MP Pro, Ifelt the Pro was in a totally different league as well, so I just wonder.


I am aware of TMC but the one I am comparing it to is made by Squadra Sportiva (Novitec) who have been tuning Alfas for a number of years. The Max power I think looked very similar to this:

which I used for a few months then they offered a newer version using MAP, Boost and Fuel injection sensors with just the positive connection for power which took from the jump start terminal.
The newer version (not pictured on their website) looks exactly like the MaxPower Pro minus the stickers including the shape and connector/colour, bypass plug etc. There was a noticeable jump between the 1st and 2nd version of the Novitec tuning box (shown installed next to the ECU, I do not have a proper picture handy). The thing I noticed with the Ver 2 of the box was there was notable power kick around 2500rpm which was not notable in Ver 1. I have seen MaxPower Pro users report similar IIRC?? I spoke with Squadra Sportiva regarding the MaxPower Pro and they said the hardware while could be the same, the software was developed specifically for the US market fuel and conditions without directly saying they are the manufacturers. I think they are the same hardware but different software.

I probably feel a much bigger jump with the Remap due to going from 200HP (dyno measured 230hp) to 323hp where as the Ver2 of the Tuning box would have bumper power by 230hp+ 50HP and 70Nm Torque. Remap is a more significant jump on my engine, on the 280HP engine the jump would be less pronounced unless you go down the route of gains offered by EC.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
‘19 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
Joined
·
3,887 Posts
I am aware of TMC but the one I am comparing it to is made by Squadra Sportiva (Novitec) who have been tuning Alfas for a number of years. The Max power I think looked very similar to this:

which I used for a few months then they offered a newer version using MAP, Boost and Fuel injection sensors with just the positive connection for power which took from the jump start terminal.
The newer version (not pictured on their website) looks exactly like the MaxPower Pro minus the stickers including the shape and connector/colour, bypass plug etc. There was a noticeable jump between the 1st and 2nd version of the Novitec tuning box (shown installed next to the ECU, I do not have a proper picture handy). The thing I noticed with the Ver 2 of the box was there was notable power kick around 2500rpm which was not notable in Ver 1. I have seen MaxPower Pro users report similar IIRC?? I spoke with Squadra Sportiva regarding the MaxPower Pro and they said the hardware while could be the same, the software was developed specifically for the US market fuel and conditions without directly saying they are the manufacturers. I think they are the same hardware but different software.

I probably feel a much bigger jump with the Remap due to going from 200HP (dyno measured 230hp) to 323hp where as the Ver2 of the Tuning box would have bumper power by 230hp+ 50HP and 70Nm Torque. Remap is a more significant jump on my engine, on the 280HP engine the jump would be less pronounced unless you go down the route of gains offered by EC.
Interesting, but so many unanswered questions! Based on the info you've shared, and on the apparently total lack of info on this v.2 PJ4 (I can't find it on Squadra or Novitec sites, and can't find any dyno or power numbers either), I don't think it's appropriate to call it a MaxPower Pro EU version. I mean, it's not even for the same motor version, as Madness don't offer a 200hp version since it doesn't exist in the USA market.

It's totally possible there are shared elements (Madness don't manufacture MPP) or even that they may be exactly the same (assuming there is a PJ4 v.2 280hp version), but I don't see any reason to believe that (the initial on-boost surge is not tell-tale to me) , and certainly no reason to say they are equivalent; I literally don't see it, either, as part of the back of the PJ4 v.2 is visible in your pic, and it is not the same housing as MPP.

It would be an interesting little tidbit to know more about, although ultimately differences come down not to hardware similarities, but to mapping details, which we don't get to see.

Finally, to your comments in your closing paragraph, yes, without doubt, you remapping the 200hp engine up to 323hp (did you actually dyno, BTW?) is a bigger jump in power than any box can provide either the 200hp or the 280hp engine, and it's also more than any flash re-map provides the 280hp engine as well, insofar as I am aware. I don't think EC has published what just their P2 tune alone offers, but their dyno sheet with P2 in combination with intake and exhaust mods only shows 100hp gain, still well below what you gained on the 200hp motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
Interesting, but so many unanswered questions! Based on the info you've shared, and on the apparently total lack of info on this v.2 PJ4 (I can't find it on Squadra or Novitec sites, and can't find any dyno or power numbers either), I don't think it's appropriate to call it a MaxPower Pro EU version. I mean, it's not even for the same motor version, as Madness don't offer a 200hp version since it doesn't exist in the USA market.

It's totally possible there are shared elements (Madness don't manufacture MPP) or even that they may be exactly the same (assuming there is a PJ4 v.2 280hp version), but I don't see any reason to believe that (the initial on-boost surge is not tell-tale to me) , and certainly no reason to say they are equivalent; I literally don't see it, either, as part of the back of the PJ4 v.2 is visible in your pic, and it is not the same housing as MPP.

It would be an interesting little tidbit to know more about, although ultimately differences come down not to hardware similarities, but to mapping details, which we don't get to see.

Finally, to your comments in your closing paragraph, yes, without doubt, you remapping the 200hp engine up to 323hp (did you actually dyno, BTW?) is a bigger jump in power than any box can provide either the 200hp or the 280hp engine, and it's also more than any flash re-map provides the 280hp engine as well, insofar as I am aware. I don't think EC has published what just their P2 tune alone offers, but their dyno sheet with P2 in combination with intake and exhaust mods only shows 100hp gain, still well below what you gained on the 200hp motor.
I was only providing an update on the existing Celtic Tuning thread. The info about the tuning box was just the background on how I perceived the enhancement difference. Novitec are now fully owned by Squadra Sportiva so there is not much info. Also, if you look at the PJ4 link, there are 2 options when puchasing to choose whether it is for the 200hp or 280hp (Veloce in EU) and they load the specific software accordingly. If you buy one from their site now, you will get the V2, they just don't appear to have updated their website picture. Their site design is a bit dated, but not their work. Like I said I will post a picture of the current PJ4 which is in my garage currently as I removed it, you will see it looks the same when I post it. There are a lot of features mentioned on the Madness site for the MaxPro that match what I have in the PJ4 version 2, like ability to update the map remotely online, use of Fuel sensor etc. Either way whether they are physically the same supplier or not is irrelevant to my original point of my post, it was just a reference.

With regards to the Celtic Tune map, it was dyno developed on another UK forum members car that I know personally. The dyno sheet is posted on their website (ignore the taper off at the end). 323hp is at the crank which is what all tuners in Europe quote (for the reason of comparing it to the manufacturers crank HP). The reason why its a massive increase on the UK spec 200hp is because the engine and turbo are identical to the 280hp (at least until the Euro 6d compliant engines were released mid 2018, mine is 2017). They have remapped the 280hp engine to 323 as well which is a 43hp increase. IIRC the EC tunes are a bit higher due to Toby's ability to tune the multiair system in more detail and with the V1,V2 intake and exhaust mods even higher. So I think the Celtic tune designed for otherwise standard cars is a bit lower gain than for example EC. For me it was the cost as well that made me choose Celtic, £425 for a self tune and they are local to UK. There are a number of other tuners providing ~320hp for either the 200hp or the 280hp engines without mods. They are all highly regarded.


From the EC site Phase 1 is closer to 350hp with the V2 intake and CB exhaust: https://shopeurocompulsion.net/blog...-tuning-alfa-romeo-giulia-2-0l-technical-info
 

·
Registered
‘19 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
Joined
·
3,887 Posts
@Triumph23 Equating a 200hp engine Novitech tuning unit to the exclusively 280hp engine MaxPower Pro unit and the subsequent comparison of the performance of the "EU equivalent of MaxPower Pro" was very confusing, so I appreciate the clarification and look forward to hearing more about your Celtic Tune results. Have you considered picking up a Dragy to validate those results?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
@chaadster I understand. My post would be more suited to the UK forum where the module is used more in the lower powered cars. I haven't got Dragy. I will try and do that when the weather is better, it's quite wet, cold and slippery with grit all over the roads. Not best to test power and RWD! After 50 miles its pulling seriously hard, this is in comparison to the 280hp Veloce which I have driven recently. Cant imagine how fast the EC tune would be like!
 

·
Administrator
2018 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
Joined
·
4,502 Posts
@chaadster I understand. My post would be more suited to the UK forum where the module is used more in the lower powered cars. I haven't got Dragy. I will try and do that when the weather is better, it's quite wet, cold and slippery with grit all over the roads. Not best to test power and RWD! After 50 miles its pulling seriously hard, this is in comparison to the 280hp Veloce which I have driven recently. Cant imagine how fast the EC tune would be like!
Eh, about the same. Real world results put all quality tuning methods around the same output. It's a numbers game being played with the advertisements and claimed HP numbers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Triumph23 and -ds-

·
Registered
Joined
·
315 Posts
hi guys

I have seen that some of you have been dealing with Stage1 of Celtic Tuning. Anyone made a dyno on your car with that setup? I have CT since 2 weeks and I can feel really difference on my Veloce 280HP Q4 (especially during 0-60 times it improved for around 0.5s comparing to stock map).
I have also race mode unlocked and catback of Ragazzon and still oem air filter and turbo. I wanted to check power/torque on dyno to check if it is really +-320HP and 470Nm of torque..going next week on road dynomet to measure it, but it could be nice to have some reference from you
 
1 - 20 of 66 Posts
Top