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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So I bought my Giulia QV to be a daily driver grand touring car that I would track occasionally. Also as a back up to my main track car the 4C.

Since my 4C has been down for a bit (but I'll have it back within 1week yeah) I have been tracking the Giulia. Anybody following this I just spent two big days at ORP and have a separate post about that it was great.

But me and another forum member Mark have been discussing how affordable it will be to track this car for both consumables (brakes and tires). He has a friend who has the QV with the steel brakes and saw a professional driver go through them in what I believe it was one day!! Please understand a professional driver driving the cart as hard as possible is exponential wear. Plus it's not his car and he's not paying for the parts ha ha. Anyway I myself have the CCB brakes and I went through a set of front pads very quickly but there was a lot of odd things that happened so we don't need to talk about that but I just put a new set of front pads on and have tracked the car hard, but not professional driver hard, for three days now. I pulled off a wheel in front and in rear and did an inspection and this is what I found so far.

Brand new CCB front brake pads are 11.5mm thick. I measured them myself just out of the box. I don't know how thick the rear brake pads are when new but I would guess they would be about the same.

The front brake pads taper wear quite a bit even though the calipers have a staggered diameter pistons. All these dimensions are in millimeters I took measurements at the highest of the brake pad edge and also the lowest part of the brake pad edge.

High inside at outer edge of rotor 5
High outside at outer edge of rotor 5
High outside at rotor edge closest to center of wheel 7 (this is the part you can see looking through the spokes of the wheel)
Low inside at outer edge of rotor 6
Low outside at outer edge of rotor 8
Low outside at rotor edge closest to center of wheel 9 (this is the part you can see looking through the spokes of the wheel)

Even I f you don't exactly understand where these measurements are taken from you can still see that the pads are wearing tapered from top to bottom with the top being the most worn. Also fortunately the pads wear on the inside brake pad more than the outside brake pad so you can't see the inside pads wear without taking the wheel off. First set of brake pads I did that had crazy where do too crazy circumstances the outside part you could see was about 4 mm and the inside when we took the well off to change them it was down to 0 mm!!! So the crazy are you break with the car the more they wear unevenly.

The set of front pads I have now are wearing more evenly. But I have tracked on them three days sobI've only probably only got maybe two more track days.

Also unfortunately front brake pads are quite expensive for CCB. My discounted price is $1,300 for a set. Divide that by five days and that's $260 per track day in front pads alone. Where pads don't wear anywhere near that much and they don't taper at all the measurement on my rear pads which are the original pads in the car is 6mm
so they probably only have three or four track days left. They are smaller so they're cheaper but I don't know what.

Hopefully these brake pad prices will come down with some aftermarket pants that might work even longer but I doubt they can last much longer as I think the carbon fiber rotors need a special pad material type only.

On top of all of this you've got whatever your rotors wore down. With CCB rotors you can't measure them with a micrometer. You actually have to take them off and clean them off and then weigh them. And each rotor is stamped with a minimum weight (see my photos). Apparently the diameter only goes down 1/10 of 1 mm in the entire life of the rotor so it disintegrates from the inside. I watched how a "How it's made" on how they make carbon fiber rotors and it was quite interesting. My shop weighted my rotors when we changed the first brake pad set and said they were really good but guessing I can only go through maybe five or six sets of brake pads before I need new rotors and those are a discounted price of $4500 for a set of fronts. So if each front brake pad gives me five track days and I can go through five sets of brake pads that means I get 25 track days out of the rotors. Some of this is guesstimation. But that estimate would be $4500÷25 track days equals $180 per track day.

So you're up to about $440 per track day not counting labor to put the parts on which is not a lot. Then you've got the price of tires and gas etc,!

Might sound like a lot and be shocking but for a bigger heavier cars this is about par for the course I believe.

Hopefully somebody reading this post has done calculations similar to what I have done for their car like a Porsche that they have tracked and can give us some cost estimates for what those cars cost to track. Corvette owners have told me that it's astronomical to track them hard.

I'm guessing the Guilia QV steel brakes is not a lot less overall. Sure the parts are less but you go through them even quicker.

Tracking with any heavy car (2,800 lbs or more) is very expensive. That's why when I do it I make the most out of it and go crazy fast and try to pass everybody, I go to the moon because I feel it's approaching the cost to go into space! Lol! But I don't drive unsafe at all. I've never gone off course or spun out or come close to a problem. That doesn't mean it won't happen to me or if anybody else has done that that they're not a safe driver as things happen I understand that.

But I build up to that with a lot of track days in a 4C driving in dynamic mode which might've saved my butt a time or two from a spin out. Now my confidence level is where I can drive with no traction control in any car and it's a good feeling. Also less expensive to drive it that way as you don't wear out your brakes from traction control kicking in.

Also you can go to road course tracking and just drive pretty mellow and cut your costs in half! It's still great fun and you can learn your lines and improve your driving. You just got to be willing to get passed a lot.

FYI tracking in the 4C is about 20% of these costs to track and is a slightly faster car if you're willing to put about $10k or more into mods as I have. But a stock 4C or maybe one you put $2k into mods is still an amazing fun and pretty fast car on the track.

A stock Giulia QV is a bit faster than a stock 4C most road courses in my opinion. Hope this helps here's some photos.

Also I found out you can jack up the entire side of the Giulia up with just using the front jack pad!

Also also when I took off my rear tire I heard some bolt fall on the ground and I found that this small bolt (Photo of me holding the bolt) that goes through the rotor apparently backed out or was never put in properly and it fell on the ground when I pulled off the wheel. it damaged my backing plate so I guess it must've been bouncing around in there somehow?! The dealers going to have to replace the backing plate. Luckily it didn't damage the rotor.
 

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I've done a hard day at Laguna and Thunderhill with daily driving. Running steel setup. Pads about 50%, rotors look good. Replaced corsas with Mich PS4S but will plan on dedicated rims and R comps for next year.

Just finished 3rd oil Change with Redline. My shop couldn't do brake bleed yet as software not available. So cost..... just set of tires for now. They should last one more track day on the front and rears probably go another full day. Thanks Al for the input so far.

Hoping to get my springs for better handling...
 

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Ouch! If I get a QV I won't go CCB for that reason, I think those parts are going to be consumable at a fast rate especially doing what you're doing and i'm assuming steel opens them up to just about any fitting brand? Think you'll have to invest in a lift and do them yourself and save on that nasty labor if you're consuming them that often or you don't have a 'friend' mechanic who can be paid in beer :D

Nice issue to have in a way, shows you're using her the right way!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
We recently discovered that you can flip and rotate the front brake pads to get maximum wear. Because the front brake pads wear at such a taper when you track the car hard this can extend brake pad wear quite a bit, maybe 30% longer which would also be 30% less expensive. But of course you have the labor in flipping the pads but it?s easy I can do it myself.

If you track this car extremely hard it?s turning out that the CCB brakes are the better way to go. Mostly because they last more than one day tracking. A friend has one with the steel rotors and hey had a professional driver track hard with the car and they only lasted one day. Of course this is a professional driver driving insanely fast and keeping up with a Porsche GT3 with another excellent driver. For us mere mortals we would get longer brake life.

Personally I can get about three maybe four hard tracking days out of front brake pads on my CCB equipped car with me driving medium hard. If I go all out maybe two days.

As far as cost wise goes steel is a bit cheaper but not a whole lot different between steel and CCB if you figure in the labor to switch them. Steel also will have more choices available once aftermarket parts arrive and will be cheaper when they come around. Bottom line this is a heavy car and all heavy cars are expensive on brakes if you track them hard.

I?m looking at designing some brake cooling which could extend brake pad use maybe another 30% but won?t be finishing it until spring.

If you?re just a waxer and don?t drive the car real hard with hard braking, CCB is a pretty good deal as you can get up to like 90,000 miles out of a brake set and with no brake dust. I believe you can now buy aftermarket ceramic pads for the steel rotors and get less brake dust too.
 

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Ouch! If I get a QV I won't go CCB for that reason, I think those parts are going to be consumable at a fast rate especially doing what you're doing and i'm assuming steel opens them up to just about any fitting brand? Think you'll have to invest in a lift and do them yourself and save on that nasty labor if you're consuming them that often or you don't have a 'friend' mechanic who can be paid in beer :D

Nice issue to have in a way, shows you're using her the right way!
QV iron rotors are co-cast aluminum-cast iron (no steel, steel is a poor friction material). Unless you want to swap them for something entirely different (which will probably be heavier and/or noisier), you are stuck with Brembo and the high prices.

2 piece bolt together aluminum hat rotors are not cheap, although certainly less pricey than CCM and probably less pricey than the custom new technology just for Guilia Brembo rotors.

I thought one of the reasons to choose CCMs is that they cost less per mile/hour/lap than the iron rotors; an effect that may not be noticeable on street.
 

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I assumed they were better performing rather than costing less due to the lack of heat retention or similar. Would surprise me if an $8k option works out cheaper but then i'm always surprised as i'm certainly not an expert. That cost even for the option makes me personally cringe :)
 

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I assumed they were better performing rather than costing less due to the lack of heat retention or similar. Would surprise me if an $8k option works out cheaper but then i'm always surprised as i'm certainly not an expert. That cost even for the option makes me personally cringe :)
Yes and the "lack of dust" may be true on the wheels but I saw drill holes full of pad dust or rotor material. That can't be good for cooling, unless it's just a result of the final stop and not moving afterward.
 

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So I bought my Giulia QV to be a daily driver grand touring car that I would track occasionally. Also as a back up to my main track car the 4C.

Since my 4C has been down for a bit (but I'll have it back within 1week yeah) I have been tracking the Giulia. Anybody following this I just spent two big days at ORP and have a separate post about that it was great.

But me and another forum member Mark have been discussing how affordable it will be to track this car for both consumables (brakes and tires). He has a friend who has the QV with the steel brakes and saw a professional driver go through them in what I believe it was one day!! Please understand a professional driver driving the cart as hard as possible is exponential wear. Plus it's not his car and he's not paying for the parts ha ha. Anyway I myself have the CCB brakes and I went through a set of front pads very quickly but there was a lot of odd things that happened so we don't need to talk about that but I just put a new set of front pads on and have tracked the car hard, but not professional driver hard, for three days now. I pulled off a wheel in front and in rear and did an inspection and this is what I found so far.

Brand new CCB front brake pads are 11.5mm thick. I measured them myself just out of the box. I don't know how thick the rear brake pads are when new but I would guess they would be about the same.

The front brake pads taper wear quite a bit even though the calipers have a staggered diameter pistons. All these dimensions are in millimeters I took measurements at the highest of the brake pad edge and also the lowest part of the brake pad edge.

High inside at outer edge of rotor 5
High outside at outer edge of rotor 5
High outside at rotor edge closest to center of wheel 7 (this is the part you can see looking through the spokes of the wheel)
Low inside at outer edge of rotor 6
Low outside at outer edge of rotor 8
Low outside at rotor edge closest to center of wheel 9 (this is the part you can see looking through the spokes of the wheel)

Even I f you don't exactly understand where these measurements are taken from you can still see that the pads are wearing tapered from top to bottom with the top being the most worn. Also fortunately the pads wear on the inside brake pad more than the outside brake pad so you can't see the inside pads wear without taking the wheel off. First set of brake pads I did that had crazy where do too crazy circumstances the outside part you could see was about 4 mm and the inside when we took the well off to change them it was down to 0 mm!!! So the crazy are you break with the car the more they wear unevenly.

The set of front pads I have now are wearing more evenly. But I have tracked on them three days sobI've only probably only got maybe two more track days.

Also unfortunately front brake pads are quite expensive for CCB. My discounted price is $1,300 for a set. Divide that by five days and that's $260 per track day in front pads alone. Where pads don't wear anywhere near that much and they don't taper at all the measurement on my rear pads which are the original pads in the car is 6mm
so they probably only have three or four track days left. They are smaller so they're cheaper but I don't know what.

Hopefully these brake pad prices will come down with some aftermarket pants that might work even longer but I doubt they can last much longer as I think the carbon fiber rotors need a special pad material type only.

On top of all of this you've got whatever your rotors wore down. With CCB rotors you can't measure them with a micrometer. You actually have to take them off and clean them off and then weigh them. And each rotor is stamped with a minimum weight (see my photos). Apparently the diameter only goes down 1/10 of 1 mm in the entire life of the rotor so it disintegrates from the inside. I watched how a "How it's made" on how they make carbon fiber rotors and it was quite interesting. My shop weighted my rotors when we changed the first brake pad set and said they were really good but guessing I can only go through maybe five or six sets of brake pads before I need new rotors and those are a discounted price of $4500 for a set of fronts. So if each front brake pad gives me five track days and I can go through five sets of brake pads that means I get 25 track days out of the rotors. Some of this is guesstimation. But that estimate would be $4500÷25 track days equals $180 per track day.

So you're up to about $440 per track day not counting labor to put the parts on which is not a lot. Then you've got the price of tires and gas etc,!

Might sound like a lot and be shocking but for a bigger heavier cars this is about par for the course I believe.

Hopefully somebody reading this post has done calculations similar to what I have done for their car like a Porsche that they have tracked and can give us some cost estimates for what those cars cost to track. Corvette owners have told me that it's astronomical to track them hard.

I'm guessing the Guilia QV steel brakes is not a lot less overall. Sure the parts are less but you go through them even quicker.

Tracking with any heavy car (2,800 lbs or more) is very expensive. That's why when I do it I make the most out of it and go crazy fast and try to pass everybody, I go to the moon because I feel it's approaching the cost to go into space! Lol! But I don't drive unsafe at all. I've never gone off course or spun out or come close to a problem. That doesn't mean it won't happen to me or if anybody else has done that that they're not a safe driver as things happen I understand that.

But I build up to that with a lot of track days in a 4C driving in dynamic mode which might've saved my butt a time or two from a spin out. Now my confidence level is where I can drive with no traction control in any car and it's a good feeling. Also less expensive to drive it that way as you don't wear out your brakes from traction control kicking in.

Also you can go to road course tracking and just drive pretty mellow and cut your costs in half! It's still great fun and you can learn your lines and improve your driving. You just got to be willing to get passed a lot.

FYI tracking in the 4C is about 20% of these costs to track and is a slightly faster car if you're willing to put about $10k or more into mods as I have. But a stock 4C or maybe one you put $2k into mods is still an amazing fun and pretty fast car on the track.

A stock Giulia QV is a bit faster than a stock 4C most road courses in my opinion. Hope this helps here's some photos.

Also I found out you can jack up the entire side of the Giulia up with just using the front jack pad!

Also also when I took off my rear tire I heard some bolt fall on the ground and I found that this small bolt (Photo of me holding the bolt) that goes through the rotor apparently backed out or was never put in properly and it fell on the ground when I pulled off the wheel. it damaged my backing plate so I guess it must've been bouncing around in there somehow?! The dealers going to have to replace the backing plate. Luckily it didn't damage the rotor.
11.5mm ?

Is that the compound thickness? Or does your measurement include the backing-plate?
109406
 

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@genyosai - only measure the 'meat' on the pad; a new front pad is 11.5mm as per your left/top image. Do not track those pads if they're less than 8.5 in my opinion (unless you hate money).

Oh. Thanks, but I have resolved that doubt lol!

Racing at Road Atlanta right now (this weekend) as a matter of fact.

 

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Good luck, shiny side up! I am at Laguna this coming Thursday. Fun fact: I also have a 2013 Audi RS5 with monster steel disks. The Audi disk is 23lbs front each, just weighed the Guilia Carbon Ceramic and it's 14lbs. Unsprung weight = lap times :)
Ha. I know. I did the same weight comparisons.

The Girodiscs are 23lbs each up from vs 13-14lbs for the CCM.

I just can't spare $12k each time I wear out a set of CCM rotors and pads. I don't have THAT kind of disposable cash 😜
 

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I really appreciate having the benefit of your research and experimentation... please keep us abreast of your observations with the Girodiscs. I presently have 95% pad and ~100% rotor available to me with the Carbon Ceramic stock brakes on the 'new to me' 2017 Giulia QV which I intend to track 3 times a year over the next four years (until my Fidelity Platinum maintenance warranty expires). Like you, I've got no stomach whatsoever for using up the stock system to the point of requiring replacement. Seems that you've landed on the smart solution.
 

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I really appreciate having the benefit of your research and experimentation... please keep us abreast of your observations with the Girodiscs. I presently have 95% pad and ~100% rotor available to me with the Carbon Ceramic stock brakes on the 'new to me' 2017 Giulia QV which I intend to track 3 times a year over the next four years (until my Fidelity Platinum maintenance warranty expires). Like you, I've got no stomach whatsoever for using up the stock system to the point of requiring replacement. Seems that you've landed on the smart solution.
I'm in between sessions right now.

Boy do these Girodisc STOP!! I'm running Raybestos ST43 compounds. My braking confidence at Road Atlanta has greatly improved.

The downside?

As we both knew, I CAN tell that I don't have the same acceleration. Certain spots on the track I cannot hit the speeds I hit with the CCMs before hitting the next braking zone.

Nevertheless, I would NOT go back to the CCMs just for the additional 10mph I seem to have lost in certain zones.

Instead, I will add some power 😉

JB4, air filter, downpipe and exhaust on the horizon 😬

I'll start with just the JB4 and some 100octane (freakin' $12/gallon here 😱)

Fun!!

Car is doing great, except for the dreaded P008a once. I let the car reach 1/2 tank. That's when it happens.

Since then I've kept the car full and haven't had the issue

I'm still going to tell my service rep to see if there's something else Available to try, but in all honesty, this is the most I've been able to run and only get the error once.

I'll take it!!
 
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