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Stellantis not gonna go bankrupt, don't worry about that. There's too much money and politics behind the merger to allow that. Both FCA and PSA we're working with profits even before the merge, so with all the cost cutting and platform sharing its even gonna be even more profit. It's dumb to think that the success or fail of Alfa Romeo's gonna be the cause for their bankruptcy. They'll kill all the brands that don't make money and they'll keep the ones that do, it's simple as that. The only thing is going bankrupt is our dream to keep driving a proper car, a proper Alfa Romeo on a Alfa Romeo platform with an Alfa engine.
So enjoy your Giulias while you can
 

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I have been visiting this site for years, but nothing had provoked me enough to create an account and become a member of this community until now. There have been a number of Giulias in the family, and just recently I took a new one home. As a long time Alfa Romeo fan, this news had completely obliterated my weekend.

As a professional car designer and Alfa Romeo enthusiast, I can safely say that the target audience for this brand is not for those who consider the environmental impact or cost efficiency of their vehicle. If anything, heading in that direction is a death sentence to the brand since the EV market is oversaturated with choice for the consumer. Alfa Romeo is fringe enough as it is in the states, so when the day comes for Alfa Romeo to present it's selection of EVs to the mainstream consumer most will opt for brands that are well established with massive marketing campaigns. The result are low sales figures and, predictably, an executive decision to pull out of the US market. And this isn't even taking into consideration that it's simply not financially practical to invest in R/D to produce a mostly electric or completely electric vehicle that is on par with the performance characteristics of ICE vehicles. So if AR wants to stay true to their commitment to performance but with an electrical twist, they're going to be dumping money they don't have into vehicles that the target demographic are not interested in, at a comparatively higher price than before. The executives absolutely know what the effects of this decision are. My guess is that there's something going on behind the scenes. Either kickbacks, or electrical components being supplied at a discount for increased profit margins (despite "shortages"). Or Stelantis is trying to attract large scale investors who have a stake in battery technology and production.

Having said all that, does anyone have any bets as to what the last year will be to order a Giulia quad?
This has been on my mind as well….
1. Alfa Romeo is a 110 year old company with experience exclusively in ICE and racing ICE powered automobiles. No experience in EV.
2. At least for N.America, consumers who have Giulias have had the choice to get Model S or 3’s for a couple of years. Why did we go with Alfa instead?(rhetorical question)
3. If Stelantis alienate the Alfisti… good luck to them bringing new customers into the fold.

I am an Alfa fan. I want a platform developed by and for Alfa; like Giorgio. I’m planning on getting the last “thoroughbred” QV when the time is right. And i have no intention of buying a car wearing the badge of Alfa Romeo built on top of an off-the-shelf platform…. I’d much sooner buy a cheaper Toyota or Kia.

I want an Alfa Romeo through and through, not the shell of an Alfa Romeo.

Of all the talk about Alfa Romeo, i wonder what the new overlords have in store for Fiat and Maserati, whose combined sales were less than Alfa’s last year(at least in the US). Do they really expect people to pay Maserati prices for off-the-shelf platforms?

PS> I totally expect to see them minimally “tweaking” one of their off-the-shelf platforms and trying to market it as “bespoke”.
 

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So my electricity bill this month was -12$ thanks to our solar roof. This included charging daily for both my wife's Cadillac ELR and my kid's e-golf. House is geothermal (electricity). Natural gas for the stove and water heater ran us $100 dollars but the most expensive energy payout was the gas I spent on my Giulia! To be clear, most of the winter was not this way, but renewables will make a dent if given the chance!...I feel like we're way of topic suddenly.
Gotta chime in here in this post. ;)
Being in the solar industry trying to prove its worth handling longevity vs efficiency, I can tell you I absolutely haaaate when people that have solar panels talk about all the money they didn't pay this month or saved.
If you are in one of the few sunshine states in the US it is possible to come out ahead BUT you paid into that array, the grid tie in, the electrical work. Solar panels loose efficiency every day. In thirty years they will be not cost effective. Panel areas short or get damage requiring repairs or replacement. Age doesn't do well for panels. The energy they produce now will likely be much lower in thirty years plus the extra cost of battling failed panels junctions boxes wires etc. So what was your total cost of investment and then consider maint costs over thirty years. If you can even get parts or will have to pay someone to retrofit or just junk and jump a bad panel. Bet even I'm a sun state your costs are fairly close if not more than electrical prices today. Solar companies will tell you energy prices will start to sky rocket. Only true if green weenies put carbon taxes out. Guess whats next to get taxed then?
Sorry I hate listening to people talk about how much money they earned or saved with their ugly solar panels on their roof or worse in an array in their yard without factoring in cost of initial investment plus degeneration plus msint costs.
Solar sucks. For most. It's a pipe dream. It's theoretical. They are making some really high efficiency panels today and costs are really going down BUT it comes at an initial cost and a cost of maint plus the pain to find people to do the work. If people must use solar for anything beyond off grid at a camp for a backup or armageddon scenerio I always tell people to go with a very reliable well known long establish panel brand that uses polycrystaline cells
 

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Sorry to enrage you man! Kinda funny that you hate solar but work in the industry. I suppose you must work for giant solar farms or other non residential program.

Yeah, I guess your right. I sound a bit like a braggert who doesn't really know that he's not winning!
I get it and to be honest we bought in because we decided that it will require people like use who can invest in this developing tech to do so if it is ever going to mature. My point in mentioning it here was to say that EVEN our rudimentary early tech can make enough electricity to more than cover the need off our home and two out of the vehicles on a single day. That is considering that our electric car batteries are super inefficient compared to tech even now ( 2014 ELR and 2016 eGolf) never mind in ten years, and our panels are going to be archaic in 5 years.

Thanks for the course correction, wasn't meaning to sound unaware of the bigger context. Now get back to work on making this tech actually work hypersloth.

Also, I intend to keep my ICE 1750 spider and giulia running, I'm just hopeful that everyday activities like keeping lights on or getting the wife and kids ( who couldn't care less about engine sound or feel) to work and back safely and efficiently can happen with minimal climate impact one day.

Cheers
 

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The EV market is "oversaturated"? Have you taken a look at how many cross over SUVs are out there?

There is massive room left for companies who are willing to execute an EV that is not focused on tech - but on the driving experience.
I'm not sure what your background is, but in automotive design typically the user experience follows, or is at least a consequence of, the vehicle's intended function. In a broad sense, we all have a problem getting from point a to b. A vehicle's purpose, or function, is to solve that problem. Crossovers are popular not because of their user experience, or even their ability to do any one thing particularly well, but because they do a lot of different things well enough. This mediocrity is the reason why it's difficult for the enthusiast to get excited about that particular segment. Similarly, the designers of early supercars focused on the function of maximizing performance which invariably lead to things like: more complex valving, less restrictive exhaust systems, preference for manual transmission, and more complex suspension geometries (amongst a multitude of other things). A consequence of that was: engine noise, powertrain vibrations and firm suspension. One could argue that even the smell of unburnt fuel is critical to this "experience". And if we want to pretend that none of these things matter because we're "modern" and live in an "advanced society" we can't even argue that there's an overall performance advantage to full electrification because there isn't one. I could see AR announcing the introduction of mild hybrid setups as there is a performance advantage at lower speeds, but the performance argument for full electrification is very limited.

Another possibility behind all these manufactures getting on the EV bandwagon is in preparation for artificially inflated fuel prices. But as a business decision this is still reckless and expensive since it's much cheaper modifying an existing powertrain to run on alternative fuels like biodiesel, natural gas, hydrogen, etc. Some of these fuels a person can create even on their own. Someone here mentioned that Porsche was working on synthetic fuel. That sounds pretty exciting.

I don't have a specific cull date on the Giulia. But I do on the company (Stellantis) as I've pessimistically posted all over this fora. 2027 for bankruptcy 1 and 2030-ish for final bankruptcy.
Ok well, I love my new Giulia but I think I love the qv just a bit more. Had I known the brand was going to be destroyed and turned into a cell phone company I would have absolutely spent more money on a qv. This is what happens when you get complacent, I guess.

Stellantis not gonna go bankrupt, don't worry about that. There's too much money and politics behind the merger to allow that. Both FCA and PSA we're working with profits even before the merge, so with all the cost cutting and platform sharing its even gonna be even more profit. It's dumb to think that the success or fail of Alfa Romeo's gonna be the cause for their bankruptcy. They'll kill all the brands that don't make money and they'll keep the ones that do, it's simple as that. The only thing is going bankrupt is our dream to keep driving a proper car, a proper Alfa Romeo on a Alfa Romeo platform with an Alfa engine.
So enjoy your Giulias while you can
Right. There is an EV war going on, and Stellatis is basically expecting a navy seal to safely disarm a bomb without any prior experience.

This has been on my mind as well….
1. Alfa Romeo is a 110 year old company with experience exclusively in ICE and racing ICE powered automobiles. No experience in EV.
2. At least for N.America, consumers who have Giulias have had the choice to get Model S or 3’s for a couple of years. Why did we go with Alfa instead?(rhetorical question)
3. If Stelantis alienate the Alfisti… good luck to them bringing new customers into the fold.

I am an Alfa fan. I want a platform developed by and for Alfa; like Giorgio. I’m planning on getting the last “thoroughbred” QV when the time is right. And i have no intention of buying a car wearing the badge of Alfa Romeo built on top of an off-the-shelf platform…. I’d much sooner buy a cheaper Toyota or Kia.

I want an Alfa Romeo through and through, not the shell of an Alfa Romeo.

Of all the talk about Alfa Romeo, i wonder what the new overlords have in store for Fiat and Maserati, whose combined sales were less than Alfa’s last year(at least in the US). Do they really expect people to pay Maserati prices for off-the-shelf platforms?

PS> I totally expect to see them minimally “tweaking” one of their off-the-shelf platforms and trying to market it as “bespoke”.
You and me both. Unfortunately people like us are the minority. As for Fiat's future, I see Fiat being consolidated into having one or two models and these models being entirely electric (for the US market at least). I think we'll get the new 500 (with no ICE option) but the current economy and the car's profitability just isn't there yet. Might be a year or two (and this is being optimistic). Maserati won't be going anywhere as luxury vehicles are very profitable. And to answer your question about Maserati using cross platforms, I absolutely do believe Stellantis can, and will charge Maserati prices for cookie cutter construction. And they will sell the same volume, at the same price, with an even larger profit margin. The general strategy will probably be a 3 to 1 ratio, where 3 models will have cookie cutter frames, and one will be purpose built. Maybe the MC20 is just that car, specifically.

On another note, a lot of car people are going to be left feeling very angry and alienated when they can no longer purchase a car with a true ICE powertrain. The company that decides to continue producing ICE vehicles will see an enormously captive audience as these buyers will have no where else to turn to. In this case, there is enormous profit potential for a company to be a hold out.
 

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I don't have a specific cull date on the Giulia. But I do on the company (Stellantis) as I've pessimistically posted all over this fora. 2027 for bankruptcy 1 and 2030-ish for final bankruptcy.
This reminds me of all the armchair experts/cynics who, at the time of Fiat absorbing Chrysler, opined on the fate of the new company by saying, “I give ‘em six months” before bankruptcy.
 
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Yes, I'm an arm chair expert. Let's talk in 2030. I can ping you my personal phone/email.

Re EV, I think it's a lot of posturing. It's mostly to keep shareholders from revolting more than anything else, because Elon went from not having enough liquidity to pay for the lawsuit insulting the guy he called pedo guy, to being the richest, in a matter of what, 24 months?
 
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Interesting because that article directly contradicts the original article posted which basically said nothing outside the Giulia/Stelvio uses it except the Maserati Levante.
Levante isn't on the Giorgio platform; it's from the separate Quattroporte platform. The NEXT Maserati SUV ("Grecale") will be a rebadged Stelvio and smaller than Levante.
Everyone says the Giorgio platform will only be used by 2 vehicles, but it's actually 4: Giulia, Stelvio, Grand Cherokee, Grecale.
 

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This is a tragedy in the making. It seems clear that people at the top do not understand the Alfa Romeo brand. Just like when they made the 164 FWD pushing people to try and swap the incredible engine they developed into Milano and GTV chassis. The Giulia highlighted that the BMW is no longer the pinnacle of "drivers car" they claimed to be and many reviewers are still preferring the QV over the newest M3 release half decade later...

The main thing that held Alfa back is chain reaction: Poor perception of reliability (perhaps unfairly, but that's the thing about reputations they must be built diligently and patiently), leading to high depreciation. High depreciation leading to uncompetitive leases; I just leased a Giulia, 47% RV after 36,000 miles, competitors RV is over 10% higher then that leading to leases that are hundreds of dollars cheaper per month for the comparative vehicle. The Giorgio platform is phenomenal and is responsible for most of the accolades this car receives (and probably most of the tires it shreds). If Stellantis really wanted to attack their competitors they should couple it with an oversized warranty, literally put their money where their mouth is and say "hey, you think the car is unreliable? No problem, we'll take on the risk and prove you wrong". Doesn't have to be something permanent, just long enough to break the stigma and let people learn that the new models are no less (and possibly more) reliable than Audi, BWM, Mercedes.
^^^^This; about the warranty. It's ridiculous that Alfa is tied for the worst warranty among the premiums!
 

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Nah man. Wait for Mazda's new RWD 6 with the I6 they have been developing. That is gonna be sweet when it comes out.
^^^This. Combined with their beautiful Soul Red and their MX-5 "Spider", it's as if Mazda is taking the ground Alfa & BMW are abandoning. If that new 6 comes with a manual I'll write my deposit today. Signed, a Fiata owner.
 

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Has anyone heard if they are gutting Maserati this way as well?

Oh and if "volume" is their goal, they should consider doing something with Fiat...they are the "economy"/"volume" brand..... instead of messing with Alfa.
Yes they are. Maserati is working on going full electric and much of their tech will be used in the new Stellantis platforms. Stellantis is transitioning to 4 platforms: small, medium, large and body-on-frame.
 

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IIRC @MacGeek indicated that the Giorgio platform was designed with anticipation of a hybrid version. I don't think full electric would be viable without such large changes that it would not be recognizable as the Giorgio platform.
Then-FCA did a strategy presentation a couple years ago where they said they would have electrified turbos in Giorgio, the electric-assist turbo spooling that requires a 48v battery, but a small one. That still may be coming. It's not clear if that is what they meant by "electrified" and "hybrid" or if those words meant something more akin to a plug-in hybrid.
 

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The headlines saying Giorgio has been "discontinued" are deeply deceptive clickbait. In reality, it sounds like Giorgio will live out a full life cycle (8+ years) but be replaced with a different, shared platform, which was destined to happen even if it stayed ICE. A better headline would have been "Stellantis to stop developing new models off of pre-electrified Giorgio". It sounds like they'll actually use a lot of Giorgio in one or more of the new EV platforms.

Remember that Giorgio was scheduled for a refresh ("mid-cycle action" or MCA in former-FCA speak) with start-of-production in 2022 (source: an investor presentation). With that refresh theoretically deep into development and EVs still several years away, I expect that will still happen, though Covid may affect the timeline. Best case, they may start to show previews later this year. They previously promised an electric-assisted turbo that spools based on a small 48V battery. Audi already has one of these and it may be from the same supplier. The development photo showed it with the 2.0, which would be awesome, but imagine if they do it with the 2.9 too, which would be totally awesome. Also expect some updated styling. My wishlist: Race mode for a 2.0 version (traction/stability off) and ventilated seats (inexcusably absent now).
 

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I think this is a good analysis. My worry is that the QV does not survive the facelift and gets dropped early. It is an expensive car to build and the focus may be more on the lesser models to drive up efficiency and trim/comfort/equipment levels. The problem is one of lack of volume and the QV my be the victim. All my own speculation of course but when we see playing around with the spec like CCB and carbon roof etc I just wonder. I think if you want a new QV then MY2021 is your opportunity.
 

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I think this is a good analysis. My worry is that the QV does not survive the facelift and gets dropped early. It is an expensive car to build and the focus may be more on the lesser models to drive up efficiency and trim/comfort/equipment levels. The problem is one of lack of volume and the QV my be the victim. All my own speculation of course but when we see playing around with the spec like CCB and carbon roof etc I just wonder. I think if you want a new QV then MY2021 is your opportunity.
I've been wondering about the QV as well. Ferrari announced they would stop making engines for Stellantis, and the 2.9 is Ferrari-built. I was thinking the QV might:

  • Keep the 2.9 either by Ferrari completing the contract or STLA taking production in-house.
  • get the Tornado inline-6 FCA was working on, but rumors have been silent for months so that might be cancelled. Might not fit in the engine bay anyway.
  • get a variation of the new Maserati MC20 V-6, which is built by Maserati but based on a Ferrari design (regardless of what Maserati says about its "in-house" design).
  • But I had not considered the possibility the QV would be discontinued. I'm betting they won't considering how much they're promoting it. In the U.S. we can only get the pretty new colors on the QV, which is another gripe of mine. They love having them for reviewers and there's lots of options like the carbon seats and roof that are QV-only.
  • Maybe they'll make the electric-turbo 2.0 the new QV. They said the electric turbo could boost power 50%, but that would only give the 2.0 ~400 horse, so it wouldn't be competitive with the current QV.
 

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Agree with much of what you say. But the Alfa 690T (the QV engine) is built at the FCA Termoli plant isn't it. The Maserati Nettuno is not as distinct as Maserati would have you believe and is from the same Ferrari family (F154) as the Alfa but with different heads. But the idea that a 2.0 with electric turbo takes over the position as the performance option seems entirely logical to me.

I think what is interesting through is that the Nettuno powertrain will shortly have a hybrid option. They won't do it, but having a QV with a Nettuno hybrid would be awesome. I am left wondering what the future of the FCA V6's is going forward. The non hybrid Nettuno must have limited life.
 

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Then-FCA did a strategy presentation a couple years ago where they said they would have electrified turbos in Giorgio, the electric-assist turbo spooling that requires a 48v battery, but a small one. That still may be coming. It's not clear if that is what they meant by "electrified" and "hybrid" or if those words meant something more akin to a plug-in hybrid.
Hmm, I seem to have been confused. MacGeek did say that the new Maserati (now known as MC20) would be a hybrid, but information has proven incorrect. I suspect that I (or someone else) asked if that big tub underneath the trunk floor was for a hybrid battery pack, but the answer (from MacGeek?) is that it is for a DEF tank.
 

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^^^This. Combined with their beautiful Soul Red and their MX-5 "Spider", it's as if Mazda is taking the ground Alfa & BMW are abandoning. If that new 6 comes with a manual I'll write my deposit today. Signed, a Fiata owner.
Are you a 124 Spider forum participant?
 
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