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Hmm, I seem to have been confused. MacGeek did say that the new Maserati (now known as MC20) would be a hybrid, but information has proven incorrect. I suspect that I (or someone else) asked if that big tub underneath the trunk floor was for a hybrid battery pack, but the answer (from MacGeek?) is that it is for a DEF tank.
Are you joking? Why would the MC20 need diesel exhaust fluid? Or does your DEF stand for something else?
 
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Gotta chime in here in this post. ;)
Being in the solar industry trying to prove its worth handling longevity vs efficiency, I can tell you I absolutely haaaate when people that have solar panels talk about all the money they didn't pay this month or saved.
If you are in one of the few sunshine states in the US it is possible to come out ahead BUT you paid into that array, the grid tie in, the electrical work. Solar panels loose efficiency every day. In thirty years they will be not cost effective. Panel areas short or get damage requiring repairs or replacement. Age doesn't do well for panels. The energy they produce now will likely be much lower in thirty years plus the extra cost of battling failed panels junctions boxes wires etc. So what was your total cost of investment and then consider maint costs over thirty years. If you can even get parts or will have to pay someone to retrofit or just junk and jump a bad panel. Bet even I'm a sun state your costs are fairly close if not more than electrical prices today. Solar companies will tell you energy prices will start to sky rocket. Only true if green weenies put carbon taxes out. Guess whats next to get taxed then?
Sorry I hate listening to people talk about how much money they earned or saved with their ugly solar panels on their roof or worse in an array in their yard without factoring in cost of initial investment plus degeneration plus msint costs.
Solar sucks. For most. It's a pipe dream. It's theoretical. They are making some really high efficiency panels today and costs are really going down BUT it comes at an initial cost and a cost of maint plus the pain to find people to do the work. If people must use solar for anything beyond off grid at a camp for a backup or armageddon scenerio I always tell people to go with a very reliable well known long establish panel brand that uses polycrystaline cells
Sorry but I must disagree with you. If you work in the solar industry you must know that most systems come with performance warranties. Tesla Solar for example guarantees the system components for 10 years and also guarantees that the panels will maintain at least 80% performance for 25 years. The vast majority of systems recover the installation costs in saved electricity in 10-15 years, any electricity produced after that is basically profit. So who cares if they will lose their efficiency or get outdated after 30 years? Yes, if someone plans to stay in their current house only for 3-5 years then the hassle of installing panels probably don't worth it, because they might not be able to recover the full cost they invested. The same is true for a new kitchen or bathroom. As the cost of panel and installation comes down, the repayment period of solar will get even shorter. The issues you bring up about solar panel efficiency degradation and maintenance costs would be also true for commercial installations as well, yet about 30% of planned new electricity generation in the U.S. will be coming from solar and only 20% from natural gas. I'm sure the utility companies understand those costs as well yet they still prefer solar.
 

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well truth is the power for electric is going to come from the same dirty sources it normally does. One day we will find out if it’s cleaner or not once all factors are considered. My guess is electric will be about 10-15% cleaner overall in the end. Is that enough to kill the ICE? I doubt it. Hybrids are the future IMO.
This thread on reddit, which is discussing the video Toyota posted of the exhaust note of their new hydrogen fueled ICE, has a large discussion on how much cleaner EVs are. One comment mentions there are already online calculators that factor in your local power grid to give you a carbon emission footprint. I check out a couple this morning and most don't seem to include production/manufacturing of the car itself, as EV batteries are carbon intensive, but I found a source (last Q=A at bottom) that says after about 1 to 2 years, an EV owner will offset the difference in manufacturing.
 

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Are you joking? Why would the MC20 need diesel exhaust fluid? Or does your DEF stand for something else?
First off, the big tub under the trunk floor of the Giorgio platform, not the MC20. Second off Euro spec direct injection engines (like the 2.0liter Multi-Air2) are required to have particulate filters and the gas equivalent of DEF injection. Have you not observed the carbon accumulation on the back of your Giulia? Thirdly, you can get a diesel engine in your Giorgio platform automobile in Europe and many other countries and those require DEF to meet smog requirements.

In 2019 in one of his last posts, MacGeek predicted that the new Maserati CF tub, V6 powered supercar (MC20) would be hybrid powered. The available version is not hybrid, and no such version has been announced. Maserati has indicated that they intend to make an AWD BEV version, available next year or so.
 

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....Re EV, I think it's a lot of posturing. It's mostly to keep shareholders from revolting more than anything else....
That's how you manipulate an industry. Even CEOs get bullied.

Then-FCA did a strategy presentation a couple years ago where they said they would have electrified turbos in Giorgio, the electric-assist turbo spooling that requires a 48v battery, but a small one. That still may be coming. It's not clear if that is what they meant by "electrified" and "hybrid" or if those words meant something more akin to a plug-in hybrid.
Electricfied turbos have more potential points of failure than traditional exhaust driven turbos. If this is the basic 48v Garrett electric compressor, a number of modifications would have to be made to "tolerate" high performance applications. This is not a performance turbo. It shouldn't be put on anything other than a prius.

The alternative is wedge type electrification where the turbo keeps the exhaust impeller and the electrical part of this turbo operates as a part time system or full time in high performance situations. In this arrangement, the electric motor is subject to incredibly high temperatures over a long period of time. This motor would absolutely need liquid cooling to maintain longevity, and this isn't even considering a possible, if not probable, coolant leak within the electric motor's casing over time. This all sounds very expensive and backwards from a thermodynamic standpoint. If we want to avoid turbo lag and want more engine sound, what's wrong with traditional supercharging? Even electric supercharging would be an improvement over this concept.

I think this is a good analysis. My worry is that the QV does not survive the facelift and gets dropped early. It is an expensive car to build and the focus may be more on the lesser models to drive up efficiency and trim/comfort/equipment levels. The problem is one of lack of volume and the QV my be the victim. All my own speculation of course but when we see playing around with the spec like CCB and carbon roof etc I just wonder. I think if you want a new QV then MY2021 is your opportunity.
It's possible Stellatis might do a spinoff of qv as a "brand" of it's own so to speak. Similar to what happened with Abarth, and the DS line of citroen. In the future, Alfa Romeo might just be a generic brand with "Quattrofolio" being a different company.

I've been wondering about the QV as well. Ferrari announced they would stop making engines for Stellantis, and the 2.9 is Ferrari-built. I was thinking the QV might:

  • Keep the 2.9 either by Ferrari completing the contract or STLA taking production in-house.
You're dreaming.

  • get the Tornado inline-6 FCA was working on, but rumors have been silent for months so that might be cancelled. Might not fit in the engine bay anyway.
You're still dreaming.

  • get a variation of the new Maserati MC20 V-6, which is built by Maserati but based on a Ferrari design (regardless of what Maserati says about its "in-house" design).
Somewhat realistic. They managed to fit a nettuno in a Giulia for some testing about a month ago.

  • But I had not considered the possibility the QV would be discontinued. I'm betting they won't considering how much they're promoting it. In the U.S. we can only get the pretty new colors on the QV, which is another gripe of mine. They love having them for reviewers and there's lots of options like the carbon seats and roof that are QV-only.
I'm actually really grateful that so many elements are shared between the regular Giulia vs qv. I think the qv deserves to get exclusive carbon seats, roof and a couple colors considering that it's a very special car.

  • Maybe they'll make the electric-turbo 2.0 the new QV. They said the electric turbo could boost power 50%, but that would only give the 2.0 ~400 horse, so it wouldn't be competitive with the current QV.
If they plan on producing 400 horsepower from a 2 liter engine, my prayers go out to all the metals involved in the process.

Agree with much of what you say. But the Alfa 690T (the QV engine) is built at the FCA Termoli plant isn't it. The Maserati Nettuno is not as distinct as Maserati would have you believe and is from the same Ferrari family (F154) as the Alfa but with different heads. But the idea that a 2.0 with electric turbo takes over the position as the performance option seems entirely logical to me.

I think what is interesting through is that the Nettuno powertrain will shortly have a hybrid option. They won't do it, but having a QV with a Nettuno hybrid would be awesome. I am left wondering what the future of the FCA V6's is going forward. The non hybrid Nettuno must have limited life.
Are you talking about the pentastar? I rented a dodge caravan once and I absolutely loved the sound of that engine. Great torque too. I was also getting something like low 20's mpg. Couldn't believe it.

This thread on reddit, which is discussing the video Toyota posted of the exhaust note of their new hydrogen fueled ICE, has a large discussion on how much cleaner EVs are. One comment mentions there are already online calculators that factor in your local power grid to give you a carbon emission footprint. I check out a couple this morning and most don't seem to include production/manufacturing of the car itself, as EV batteries are carbon intensive, but I found a source (last Q=A at bottom) that says after about 1 to 2 years, an EV owner will offset the difference in manufacturing.
Yea, manufacturing batteries isn't all that nice for the environment. At least initially. Once enough batteries and battery pollution is produced we'll probably see these batteries get recycled at the end of their lifespan in older EVs. I'm sure manufactures would want to set up an incentive for buyers to turn in their old EVs for a new one so that the company gets to remanufacture the pack. Lowering the cost of manufacturing and benefitting from having the buyer purchase a new vehicle as a result. Similar to how some car companies under the soviet union would have vehicle rebuild or "update" programs. Taking the old car, rebuilding it, and then putting it back on the market.
 

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There is an Imparato's message shared today in the Forum that goes something like this:

..... Anyone concerned should put those fears to rest because Alfa's new CEO has a message for them, and especially for Americans. Expect the Giulia and Stelvio replacements to be PHEVs at least. Equally important, Alfa must and will be managed from Italy. Nearly 100 percent of Imparato’s 49-person strong management team are Italians who are passionate about the brand. They refuse to let it sink away into oblivion....
 

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They managed to fit a nettuno in a Giulia for some testing about a month ago.
How do you know that?
I'm actually really grateful that so many elements are shared between the regular Giulia vs qv. I think the qv deserves to get exclusive carbon seats, roof and a couple colors considering that it's a very special car.
Agree with all of this.
If they plan on producing 400 horsepower from a 2 liter engine, my prayers go out to all the metals involved in the process.
How has Mercedes/AMG high-powered 2.0L fared?
 

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well truth is the power for electric is going to come from the same dirty sources it normally does. One day we will find out if it’s cleaner or not once all factors are considered. My guess is electric will be about 10-15% cleaner overall in the end. Is that enough to kill the ICE?
Not really. It's a lot easier to control pollution from a large point source like a power plant than it is from several million small mobile point sources. Plus it is a lot more efficient from a power generating point of view. ICEs are only about 15% efficient at best, large power plants are far more efficient. New solar cells are at the break-even point with oil and will continue to improve and wind has long been more efficient. Soon you will be able to charge your car from the solar cells on your roof. Also, fossil fuel burning power plants are dinosaurs and do not have long left. Solar and wind will soon take over. I welcome it.

I liked my engineering bamboo slide rule too, but I don't want to go back to using it.
 

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. And i have no intention of buying a car wearing the badge of Alfa Romeo built on top of an off-the-shelf platform…. I’d much sooner buy a cheaper Toyota or Kia.

I want an Alfa Romeo through and through, not the shell of an Alfa Romeo.
I agree 100% with this. I was salivating for a Tonale until I learned it was built on a Jeep platform. Things are changing rapidly and I hope Alfa Romeo will be allowed to tweak/redesign/gut any platform they are given to meet AR standards.

As for electric vehicles, I believe those will improve exponentially as batteries improve and get lighter. Just because current electric cars are heavier than ICE cars does not mean they always will be.
 

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How has Mercedes/AMG high-powered 2.0L fared?
A few months ago(out of sheer boredom), i browsed BMW, Audi, Merc, Lexus and Cadillac’s website to see how they compare to Alfa’s 2.0L. If i remember correctly there was only one AMG model with a 2.0L which produced more horsepower.
Some perspective… this info was seen ~4 years AFTER Alfa’s 2.0L hit the market.

I’m kindof skeptical of seeing 400hp from an I4 tho, i’d be a little concerned about long-term…. “survivability” of such an engine. :)
 

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I agree 100% with this. I was salivating for a Tonale until I learned it was built on a Jeep platform. Things are changing rapidly and I hope Alfa Romeo will be allowed to tweak/redesign/gut any platform they are given to meet AR standards.

As for electric vehicles, I believe those will improve exponentially as batteries improve and get lighter. Just because current electric cars are heavier than ICE cars does not mean they always will be.
Those Jeeps are built on a FIAT platform.
 

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Not really. It's a lot easier to control pollution from a large point source like a power plant than it is from several million small mobile point sources. Plus it is a lot more efficient from a power generating point of view. ICEs are only about 15% efficient at best, large power plants are far more efficient. New solar cells are at the break-even point with oil and will continue to improve and wind has long been more efficient. Soon you will be able to charge your car from the solar cells on your roof. Also, fossil fuel burning power plants are dinosaurs and do not have long left. Solar and wind will soon take over. I welcome it.

I liked my engineering bamboo slide rule too, but I don't want to go back to using it.
I agree with what you've said, but just like to point out that even back in the 1980's ICEs were at about 30%+ efficiency. However I'm pretty sure even with all the technology innovation since then, road-going cars are still not at 40% efficiency.
 

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I can't imagine the amount of money/resources they spent on that Giorgio platform. Yes, it did give us the Gulia, but overall, what a waste.

There is an Imparato's message shared today in the Forum that goes something like this:

..... They refuse to let it sink away into oblivion....
The people on the Titanic said the same thing. Didn't change the outcome though.
 

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I can't imagine the amount of money/resources they spent on that Giorgio platform. Yes, it did give us the Gulia, but overall, what a waste.



The people on the Titanic said the same thing. Didn't change the outcome though.

..... anyone concerned should put those fears to rest because Alfa's new CEO has a message for them, and especially for Americans.....
 

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I’m retaining 20% optimism. Platform sharing can work if its done right. Audi Q5 and Porsche Macan are the same chassis; the Q3 and the VW Tiguan (I think that’s the one) are the same platform. In fact, I recently read all new small Audis will use the VW MEB platform while all the larger Audis will use a platform co-developed with Porsche. In short: there is no “Audi” aside from unique styling and tuning of other peoples’ bits. For all this, I don’t hear Audi fans wailing about the common underpinnings. (True, I don’t listen in on that part of the world cuz I DGAF about it...just sayin’).

The Lexus ES and the Toyota Avalon are the same platform. The Acura ILX is a prior-gen Civic platform. Ad on and on.

None of this is to guarantee Stelantis will take the time, effort and cost to do it right; it is to say it is POSSIBLE for them to do it right. Hell, it’s been done before: step forward the Fiat Croma...errr, no, the Saab 9000...still not it...the Lancia Thema...I mean the Alfa Romeo 164.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I spotted a nearby graveyard. Think I’ll walk past it. Whistling.
 

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How do you know that?

How has Mercedes/AMG high-powered 2.0L fared?
The M133 or the M139? Either way people buy them. My advice is that this more of an F1 approach and should be considered as "disposable" performance. 100 hp per piston is not a long term strategy. The unit may still run over long term, but not at it's stated power output, or at least not as efficiently over time. If you're into newer, smaller displacement Mercedes engines and plan on long term ownership, I'd go with the M256. As a general rule though, older engine designs were just better at "staying alive".

Not really. It's a lot easier to control pollution from a large point source like a power plant than it is from several million small mobile point sources. Plus it is a lot more efficient from a power generating point of view. ICEs are only about 15% efficient at best, large power plants are far more efficient. New solar cells are at the break-even point with oil and will continue to improve and wind has long been more efficient. Soon you will be able to charge your car from the solar cells on your roof. Also, fossil fuel burning power plants are dinosaurs and do not have long left. Solar and wind will soon take over. I welcome it.

I liked my engineering bamboo slide rule too, but I don't want to go back to using it.
The maximum amount of power that can be extracted via solar radiation on the surface of the earth is 164 watts per m/sq. This is assuming a panel can obtain 100 percent efficiency (impossible). The battery capacity of a Tesla Model S is 100 kwh. As a rough estimate (not factoring efficiency losses and voltage requirements), it would require over 600 sq. meters of real estate to be able to "fill" this vehicle in one hour using perfect solar panels. This is just for one vehicle, during the day, and with good weather. On top of that, if this theoretical charging station or power plant were to exist, there would have to be very large batteries/capacitors or whatever to be able to store this energy for the sake of convenience.

If you're bored, you can refer to this table which lists the energy density of different fuel types. Lithium is at the bottom. I know full well that this table doesn't take thermodynamic losses into consideration, but there's just so much more energy that can be extracted from burning things. I'm not saying solar or lithium is useless. I'm saying every kind of technology has it's place, and applying this technology to personal transportation just seems forced.

..... anyone concerned should put those fears to rest because Alfa's new CEO has a message for them, and especially for Americans.....
Especially for Americans? As if Italians won't notice or care? I have family in Italy... Many of them into cars. They don't like this news either. Stellantis should be ashamed of their intentions. Tovares probably thinks success is defined through sales targets and profit margins. Elkann doesn't care about cars either- he just likes boats, designer suits and buying his way into the fashion industry. Sergio is spinning in his grave. All these voices saying how they want to keep things "Alfa Romeo" and then "no wait lets just change this that this and this too. Still Alfa Romeo, see?". What a way to defecate on a man's vision. I'm surprised this thread isn't even pinned.

Platform sharing can work if its done right.
I agree. I like the giorgio platform too.
 

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As a rough estimate (not factoring efficiency losses and voltage requirements), it would require over 600 sq. meters of real estate to be able to "fill" this vehicle in one hour using perfect solar panels.
This is a common fallacy when solar and wind power is being criticized. Do not confuse a solar-powered grid with off-the-grid solar. There is no need to charge your hypothetical Tesla directly from your panels in real time. You put power into the grid along with thousands of other customers, and withdraw it at whatever rate you need to charge your Tesla in an hour.
 

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I went from a 3 cabrio to a Miata to an Alfa Giulia. I miss my Miata, but not as much as the Giulia. (the only thing I miss about any one of my 3 cabrios is the naturally aspirated flat sixes)

I am not sure why this never occurred to me. I'm sure somebody else here might have thought of this and mentioned, but it didn't run across me.

Miata is already repackaged as a Fiat, so why not repackage it as an Alfa, make it pretty with the Alfa nose and stuff, drop in the Giulia's 2.0 and a stick or the ZF and bam!
 
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I went from a 3 cabrio to a Miata to a Alfa Giulia. I miss my Miata, but not as much as the Giulia.

I am not sure why this never occurred to me. I'm sure somebody else here might have thought of this and mentioned, but it didn't run across me.

Miata is already repackaged as a Fiat, so why not repackage it as a Alfa, make it pretty with the Alfa nose and stuff, drop in the Giulia's 2.0 and a stick or the ZF and bam!
It was heavily considered if I remeber correctly and the decision was made it wasn't unique enough to call it an Alfa Spider.
 
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