Alfa Romeo Giulia Forum banner
21 - 40 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
I've been trying to get four 9x19 inch dark 5-hole teledials for my Ti. The dealer is having problems ordering.

They have a Ti with the staggered 5-hole setup, and the rears look good. This staggered set is only available as a separate wheel upgrade package. It conflicts with the lusso interior we choose.

I think it will look killer with four nines and the 255s. Won't need any spacers. We shall see how they actually fit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,569 Posts
I think it will look killer with four nines and the 255s. Won't need any spacers. We shall see how they actually fit.
I am sure it will look great, not to mention that even Ti completelly overpowers standard tires....I am thinking about throwing 255s or 245s on sooner then current 225s wear, I dont mind RFTs too much but who puts P7 touring tire stamdard on a car like this?245/40/18 P Zero Nero AS RFT will be my choice on Lusso wheels
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
658 Posts
For what its worth I'm really happy with the staggered 19x8 front running 225/40's and 19x9 rear running 255/35's all are Michelin Pilot Sport 4S so are not run flats. My Giulia Ti is a RWD Q2. I don't have a ton of miles on it yet so haven't been really thrashing it but I really like the ride it corners like its on rails at speeds that would have had the E46 ZHP which is no slouch in the cornering department starting to loose grip.

I don't have any wheel spacers installed and personally really like the appearance, see the attached thumbnail. But I know that's a very subjective and personal thing but the photo may help you figure out whether you want wider wheels or spacers.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
I've been trying to get four 9x19 inch dark 5-hole teledials for my Ti. The dealer is having problems ordering.

They have a Ti with the staggered 5-hole setup, and the rears look good. This staggered set is only available as a separate wheel upgrade package. It conflicts with the lusso interior we choose.

I think it will look killer with four nines and the 255s. Won't need any spacers. We shall see how they actually fit.
Will 255s fit on the front? The QV has 245s on the front and I suspect that they would have fitted the largest tires that will clear. OTOH, QV has different wheel wells than Ti both front and back, so maybe looking to it as an example is not too helpful.

Wider tires should yield more grip on smooth surfaces, but the increased unsprung weight may be detrimental on less than smooth surfaces. Clearly there is an "ideal" somewhere--I wonder who might know what works best?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
437 Posts
lockem said:
Wider tires should yield more grip on smooth surfaces, but the increased unsprung weight may be detrimental on less than smooth surfaces. Clearly there is an "ideal" somewhere--I wonder who might know what works best?
This is something I've been looking into quite a bit lately. We (the collective we) always want to go wider, but I think we need to give more consideration into the actual vehicle application and cons (example: increased weight, turning radius etc) of going wider vs simply changing tire compound/type.

Pretty good write up below. One key takeaway I learned is that going wider in 'number' does not always yield to a greater contact patch with the ground. Tirerack has a pretty good metric to help makes things apples to apples across varies tire manufacturers at a given tire inflation.


Once my Q4 gets here, on the 19x8 wheels I'll probably just run 235/40r19 with a sticky tire.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...LY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE.aspx


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
Will 255s fit on the front? The QV has 245s on the front and I suspect that they would have fitted the largest tires that will clear. OTOH, QV has different wheel wells than Ti both front and back, so maybe looking to it as an example is not too helpful.

Wider tires should yield more grip on smooth surfaces, but the increased unsprung weight may be detrimental on less than smooth surfaces. Clearly there is an "ideal" somewhere--I wonder who might know what works best?
I suspect they stayed with a narrow front tire for ease of steering around town. If I was going to seriously track a Quad, I'd start with 10 inch wheels all around. This is why I choose the 9's not the 10's. Ultimately, she's a street car and I will never track her. I'd like to see my wife do a high performance driving school with the Giulia.

Nine inch wheels with 255 will be more than enough for me. When I want to seriously carve a canyon, I have my 4C. And, I do have a dedicated track car, 240z.

As to clearance issues, we shall see.
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
This is something I've been looking into quite a bit lately. We (the collective we) always want to go wider, but I think we need to give more consideration into the actual vehicle application and cons (example: increased weight, turning radius etc) of going wider vs simply changing tire compound/type.

Pretty good write up below. One key takeaway I learned is that going wider in 'number' does not always yield to a greater contact patch with the ground. Tirerack has a pretty good metric to help makes things apples to apples across varies tire manufacturers at a given tire inflation.


Once my Q4 gets here, on the 19x8 wheels I'll probably just run 235/40r19 with a sticky tire.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...LY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE.aspx
Interesting. According to the author's rule of thumb, one should get wider rims to mount anything wider than the stock 225s (I assume that Michelin's 200mm = 7.9 inches tread width is typical of 225mm tires) and the QVs front 245s mounted on 19x8.5 rims is already a too wide tire for the rim for best handling.

Of course you have to reduce tire pressure when you go with wider than stock tires to get a decent ride and improve contact patch. Figuring out how much to reduce it by could be challenging although a proportional change relative to the tread width change would be a first approximation:

New tire pressure first guess = old tire pressure first guess * (old tire tread width)/(new tire tread width)

This approximation is intended to keep the same length contact patch as the original tires and should be the minimum acceptable tire pressure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
437 Posts
So I've been running 235/35r19 Michelin Pilot Super Sports for about a week now and love them. The fitment on the stock 19x8 dark holes are pretty perfect.

I went with the 235/35r19 since I had those lying around. I'd recommend 235/40r19 and will go with that at some point though. IMO a 245 would look a little out of place and overkill on the 19x8.

The 35 vs 40 isn't noticeable but lowering springs are probably in the future regardless.
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
Here is what I came up with for my "ideal". Feedback appreciated:

1) Order a Q4 with 19" sport package. I find the 19" wheels far more attractive than any of the other wheels offered by Alfa. They certainly look lighter than the other wheels. Otherwise I would go with smaller rims.

2) Order a set of four 19x9 5 hole Alfa rims.

3) Install a set of 255 35R19 "summer" tires on the 19x9 rims. I need tires that will work down to freezing, but these do not need and M&S rating. It seems that all tires that have a compound that will work at freezing also have compromise tread patterns to get the M&S rating. Am I missing something?

4) Install an aggressive set of 245 (or 235) 40R19 "winter" tires on the original 19x8 rims. This will slightly increase ground clearance and improve "flotation" on snow compared to the stock tires. Heavily siped winter tires don't handle very well on dry pavement, so these are strictly winter tires.

Twice a year wheel swaps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
I just installed dark 5-hole 19x9 (four) with MPSS 255/35x19 tires today. They fit and look good. No need for spacers. The fronts are tight, but no rubbing so far.

The only catch is the guide pin. The front has a longer guide pin than the rear. So the fronts didn't seat correctly until I removed the guide pin. The pin is nessaccary to hold the rotor in place. So I'll order a set of rear pins to use on the front.

I'm going to do a write-up in a new thread later after I have the new pins. With pics.

Looks good and drives good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bull

·
Registered
Joined
·
437 Posts
Here is what I came up with for my "ideal". Feedback appreciated:

1) Order a Q4 with 19" sport package. I find the 19" wheels far more attractive than any of the other wheels offered by Alfa. They certainly look lighter than the other wheels. Otherwise I would go with smaller rims.

2) Order a set of four 19x9 5 hole Alfa rims.

3) Install a set of 255 35R19 "summer" tires on the 19x9 rims. I need tires that will work down to freezing, but these do not need and M&S rating. It seems that all tires that have a compound that will work at freezing also have compromise tread patterns to get the M&S rating. Am I missing something?

4) Install an aggressive set of 245 (or 235) 40R19 "winter" tires on the original 19x8 rims. This will slightly increase ground clearance and improve "flotation" on snow compared to the stock tires. Heavily siped winter tires don't handle very well on dry pavement, so these are strictly winter tires.

Twice a year wheel swaps.

Definitely get the Q2 or Q4 with 19" Sport Package. You won't regret it.

Next really think about how the car will be used. Are you going for looks and primarily a daily driver or do you plan on tracking it? That should help determine how you really want to spend the money. Kinda curious what a set of 19x9's will run you? Assuming getting them from the dealer?

(Kinda regretting I didn't weigh the 19x8's while I had them dismounted.) You could also go the aftermarket route for wheels. I know @[email protected] is running Avant Garde Wheels 19x8.5 - 19x9.5 with a 255/35 in the rear and that looks pretty spot on.

For winters I plan on running 225/45r18. OZ seems to have some wheels in our fitment. I'm sure more will be rolling in soon as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Contact patch size is determined by vehicle weight and tire pressure. That's it. It is a misconception that bigger tires provide a larger contact patch. Wider tires only change the shape of the contact patch. Straight line tracking, top speed, and fuel economy are all better with a narrow tire. The advantage in going wider is reduced tread squirm in heavy cornering which produces less heat which is important in competition. Wider also looks racier!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
My dark 5-holes 19x9 cost me $500 each. Dealer said he was giving me a special price. I didn't ask which direction the special was...

I also bought TPMS valves and black center caps.

Michelin Pilot Super Sport were $250 each (not from dealer).

About $3500, maybe less.
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
Contact patch size is determined by vehicle weight and tire pressure. That's it. It is a misconception that bigger tires provide a larger contact patch. Wider tires only change the shape of the contact patch. Straight line tracking, top speed, and fuel economy are all better with a narrow tire. The advantage in going wider is reduced tread squirm in heavy cornering which produces less heat which is important in competition. Wider also looks racier!
That's unfortunately not quite true:

If the tire had no rigidity, like a bicycle tire the contact patch size is function of weight and pressure. Car tire tread does have some strength to it, causing the contact patch size to be more complex than just weight and inflation pressure because the pressure on the ground is not uniform. Also, the contact patch does all kinds of complicated things once the driver demands that the tire have some traction on the road. This behavior is very hard to predict and best determined by experimentation (albeit very expensive experimentation). The best rule of thumb is to assume that the car manufacturer was reasonably competent and avoid drastic changes in tire sizes. Adding 10-15% to the tire width is not drastic, btw. Changing from 70 profile tires to 35 profile tires (same OD, same width) is drastic and can result in problems like harsh ride and tire skip unless other things are changed at the same time. Changing the OD by more than a few percent is usually asking for trouble unless other things are changed at the same time.

When all other parameters are the same, a wider tire will have lower rolling resistance than a narrow tire. Road bicycles get narrow tires because they can be inflated to higher pressures, have less wind resistance and weigh less, not because they roll better.

A wider contact patch will increase lateral grip. I think Tirerack posted an article on the subject with measurements. Since most law enforcement agencies frown on driving very fast, cornering is the most legal way to have fun while driving.

A lower profile tire handles better and gets more traction, but at the cost of ride quality and rolling resistance.

Wider definitely looks better, but can get pricey to replace.
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
Definitely get the Q2 or Q4 with 19" Sport Package. You won't regret it.

Next really think about how the car will be used. Are you going for looks and primarily a daily driver or do you plan on tracking it? That should help determine how you really want to spend the money. Kinda curious what a set of 19x9's will run you? Assuming getting them from the dealer?

(Kinda regretting I didn't weigh the 19x8's while I had them dismounted.) You could also go the aftermarket route for wheels. I know @[email protected] is running Avant Garde Wheels 19x8.5 - 19x9.5 with a 255/35 in the rear and that looks pretty spot on.

For winters I plan on running 225/45r18. OZ seems to have some wheels in our fitment. I'm sure more will be rolling in soon as well.
The car will be driven up and down a mountain pass (200-240miles one way) late at night on a weekly basis.
In the winter the 240 mile route can get a bit rough. I may end up driving my wife's Crosstrek and letting her drive Giulia around town (no snow in town). Crosstrek may be gutless, but it is pretty competent in the muck. There are not a lot of "technical" curves on my winter route (over Carson Pass). Ground clearance can be an issue on this route.

In the summer the 200 mile route begs for a 4C or similar small, light weight car. The route is roughly, 100 miles of boring traffic clogged freeway, 50 miles of fast secondary road with no big challenges, and 50 miles of fairly extreme road (Sonora Pass, more-or-less following the oldest trans-Sierran route, established in 1841-2, abandoned circa 1853 as too difficult, reopened in 1863, reworked in the 1920s). Lots of curves, both fast and very sharp, steep rises and drop offs sometimes in the middle of a curve; the road surface is almost always in beautiful condition, but it is narrow (10' lanes) and has almost no K rails. It is maintained in the "substandard" condition as a special case due to the history of the road. It is very difficult to have too much traction on this road. I am hoping to setup Giulia so that it is reasonably competent at both routes year 'round at least with the help of a tire change and maybe a suspension height adjuster.

I drive at night because otherwise I end up stuck behind a "road boulder". Deer come out at night so I always keep a twitchy foot near the brake pedal.

I commute on my "carbon fiber" racing bicycle (my daily driver, if you will). For those not "in the know" carbon fiber is not the best available material for making frames and similar complex structures. The bike frame is made with a blend of strong carbon fiber and stiff spectra fiber. IIRC, 2.5 lbs for $2500 10 years ago. The blended material saves about 10% of the weight and adds 10-20% to the price. Maybe a little pricey for a whole car chassis. Also, the frame is painted to look like a CF weave because an optimal CF layup is not pretty and paint weighs less than a non-functional layer of CF.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
I take your point about the complexity of tire performance. I was speaking to the abstract concept of 'tire patch" and assuming like tires are being compared. If you compare different tire brands and types or extremes of size difference there are other elements that become more relevant. I got to spend a day with Ford engineers at Dearborn Proving Grounds and got to track the Taurus SVO Police Interceptor they had just developed. They told me that they consider the size and brand/model of tires to be part of the suspension tuning and do not recommend making changes. They also made a dig at other car companies that put whatever tires are available at assembly time even though the car will not be right - or more likely their testing is limited and their cars not fine tuned enough to matter what tire is fitted. I think Alfa cares a lot about driving dynamics and have tuned the cars for their target audiences. If you want to run your car on the track the Quad is what you want. If you want a sporty road car the Base or Ti have their compromises more in line with practicality.
 

·
Registered
2018 Q4 with Fiamenghi Ti exhaust, Race Mod, and Tecnico wheels.
Joined
·
7,725 Posts
I take your point about the complexity of tire performance. I was speaking to the abstract concept of 'tire patch" and assuming like tires are being compared. If you compare different tire brands and types or extremes of size difference there are other elements that become more relevant. I got to spend a day with Ford engineers at Dearborn Proving Grounds and got to track the Taurus SVO Police Interceptor they had just developed. They told me that they consider the size and brand/model of tires to be part of the suspension tuning and do not recommend making changes. They also made a dig at other car companies that put whatever tires are available at assembly time even though the car will not be right - or more likely their testing is limited and their cars not fine tuned enough to matter what tire is fitted. I think Alfa cares a lot about driving dynamics and have tuned the cars for their target audiences. If you want to run your car on the track the Quad is what you want. If you want a sporty road car the Base or Ti have their compromises more in line with practicality.
Greg,

You provide generally good advice. The one fault being that all cars have compromises. The manufacturer makes the compromises that they think will make them the most money and those compromises are not necessarily what are optimum for a particular driver.

I expect that the Police Interceptor has its own set of compromises that includes a set of requirements from the highway patrol or whoever is buying them. Police need to be able to hit other cars without loosing control of their car, for example. Such very specific requirements will result in a very specific setup to meet it.

For example, Alfa limits tire sizes in part to ensure that there is enough room to mount chains. Alfa mounts run-flats I think as a cost control measure although it is possible that the "average" driver prefers them over the risk of having to use a tire repair kit on the road, I dunno. Alfa does not fit aggressive snow tires at all, since they would not meet the average prospective buyers expectations (noisy, squirrelly handling) unless the test drive was on snow or ice. Alfa also has to be cost conscious when they select tires; they are after all trying to make a profit and if we want to continue to be able to buy their product let's hope that they do make a profit.

Driving in the snow with wide tires may create problems with snow packing in the wheel well and causing binding. The same problem could happen if the OD of the tire is larger than stock. This is part of why I asked for information from people with experience on the subject.

I am not sure what problems could happen with wide tires on dry pavement, assuming nothing hits anywhere. Maybe too many speeding tickets?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
I take your point about the complexity of tire performance. I was speaking to the abstract concept of 'tire patch" and assuming like tires are being compared. If you compare different tire brands and types or extremes of size difference there are other elements that become more relevant. I got to spend a day with Ford engineers at Dearborn Proving Grounds and got to track the Taurus SVO Police Interceptor they had just developed. They told me that they consider the size and brand/model of tires to be part of the suspension tuning and do not recommend making changes. They also made a dig at other car companies that put whatever tires are available at assembly time even though the car will not be right - or more likely their testing is limited and their cars not fine tuned enough to matter what tire is fitted. I think Alfa cares a lot about driving dynamics and have tuned the cars for their target audiences. If you want to run your car on the track the Quad is what you want. If you want a sporty road car the Base or Ti have their compromises more in line with practicality.
Right! The tire is an important part of the suspension. Generally, the tire, type and size is part of the design. It (the tire) plays a big part in how the car rides and feels over bumps, big and small. The sidewall is an active part of the shock absorption. If a car was designed around a high sidewall balloon tire and the owner later puts on a low profile tire with very little sidewall, the care will ride like it has solid steel wheels.

There are many other aspects that the tire and it's sidewall do as well. Flexing during cornering to maintain a constant contact patch. If the tire flexes to much, the contact patch will be lessened. If the tire does not flex enough, the contact patch will be lessened.


Police cruisers among other things, carry a lot of equipment. They are very heavy cars as compared to their civilian counterpart. Spring rates, sway bars (anti-roll bars), shock dampers and tires must be different in order to provide the proper ride and handling. Police officers do go through extensive classes on car control.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I just installed dark 5-hole 19x9 (four) with MPSS 255/35x19 tires today. They fit and look good. No need for spacers. The fronts are tight, but no rubbing so far.

The only catch is the guide pin. The front has a longer guide pin than the rear. So the fronts didn't seat correctly until I removed the guide pin. The pin is nessaccary to hold the rotor in place. So I'll order a set of rear pins to use on the front.

I'm going to do a write-up in a new thread later after I have the new pins. With pics.

Looks good and drives good.
How are the 255s working for you? Any rubbing since last post?

Thinking of doing the same for my new Q4.
 
21 - 40 of 49 Posts
Top