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...The welds that u put in for replacement of rails or any parts will not b as strong as factory welds.
you'd be amazed to know that most of this car is held in one piece by glue and couple bolts :D whole strut tower for shock absorber is glued to frame and it does the job pretty well.

I know other OEMs make the preferred repair methods readily available for their vehicles. Has anyone come across something similar for Alfa Romeo? I did find a good catalog on one of Mopar’s sites listing the various primers, waxes, and pre-finishes to use, but nothing regarding straightening vs welding.
check techauthority.com - they got parts catalogue and service repair manuals. I think there should be body repair procedures too.
in parts catalogue body is shown just as Lego - you can replace whole front bit by bit. basically you can peal whole body like an onion and replace with good parts.
but I'd get car to body shop which repairs frames - they should be able to tell whether straighten frame or put new one.

also drop engine with gearbox - will make work much easier. just put front suspension back so you could roll body around workshop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
check techauthority.com - they got parts catalogue and service repair manuals. I think there should be body repair procedures too.
in parts catalogue body is shown just as Lego - you can replace whole front bit by bit. basically you can peal whole body like an onion and replace with good parts.
but I'd get car to body shop which repairs frames - they should be able to tell whether straighten frame or put new one.

also drop engine with gearbox - will make work much easier. just put front suspension back so you could roll body around workshop.
Great thought! As of now, with the cracked suspension cross-member / sub-frame (associated with bent rails) I will be a ways out before I get the car back on its front feet again ;)

I've been seriously considering getting some of the QuickJack lifts to bring the whole vehicle up to a seated working-height. Though I love the idea, my two points of hesitation... 1) This is meant to be a learning experience and not a money-sink, so where I can control costs, I will.... (maybe on the next build?) and 2) I'm so used to sliding under cars that have been blocked up I wouldn't know what to do with all that extra wiggle room! :LOL:
 

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you'd be amazed to know that most of this car is held in one piece by glue and couple bolts :D whole strut tower for shock absorber is glued to frame and it does the job pretty well.


check techauthority.com - they got parts catalogue and service repair manuals. I think there should be body repair procedures too.
in parts catalogue body is shown just as Lego - you can replace whole front bit by bit. basically you can peal whole body like an onion and replace with good parts.
but I'd get car to body shop which repairs frames - they should be able to tell whether straighten frame or put new one.

also drop engine with gearbox - will make work much easier. just put front suspension back so you could roll body around workshop.
My shock towers are held on by bolts that attach to upper and lower frame rails; there might be some glue but it is not obvious. FWIW: it is worth checking bolt tightness--I had a few loose ones.
Field repairs to high strength glued joints is very difficult.
Submarines are field welded together, so I re-assert that expertly done welding is a good repair. Tricky parts with welding include avoiding heat induced warpage, post-weld heat treatment, and preventing corrosion. Of course if you can remove and replace the damaged part that is best.

Jag E-types have a cage around the engine that bolts to the front firewall using a large number of small diameter high strength steel bolts. You never want to take the cage off for repair. If it is straight, why bother? If it is damaged, you will not ever be able to get the bolt holes re-aligned. Some folks replace the bolts for cosmetic reasons, but the bolts are swapped out one at a time to avoid allowing the frame to snap out of position. I do not know if a similar situation applies to Giulia.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
That’s v
Jag E-types have a cage around the engine that bolts to the front firewall using a large number of small diameter high strength steel bolts. You never want to take the cage off for repair. If it is straight, why bother? If it is damaged, you will not ever be able to get the bolt holes re-aligned. Some folks replace the bolts for cosmetic reasons, but the bolts are swapped out one at a time to avoid allowing the frame to snap out of position. I do not know if a similar situation applies to Giulia.
That’s very interesting! I didn’t know that was the approach they used.

Regarding the Giulia, you are correct - there are some big bolts securing the bottom of the towers to the rail and then a mess of spot welds and panel bond securing the rest of the apron sheet metal.

After getting into it a bit further yesterday I do have a cracked tower on the passenger side so I’ll be replacing that (have found a donor assembly) so my intent would be to cut the rail and apron further downstream and spot weld / glue the new pieces in. Still TBD on the driver side as the damage isn’t quite as extensive so a straightening may still be an option.
 

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That’s v


That’s very interesting! I didn’t know that was the approach they used.

Regarding the Giulia, you are correct - there are some big bolts securing the bottom of the towers to the rail and then a mess of spot welds and panel bond securing the rest of the apron sheet metal.

After getting into it a bit further yesterday I do have a cracked tower on the passenger side so I’ll be replacing that (have found a donor assembly) so my intent would be to cut the rail and apron further downstream and spot weld / glue the new pieces in. Still TBD on the driver side as the damage isn’t quite as extensive so a straightening may still be an option.
Make sure to use glue that are conforming to oem specs for thw tower. I still dont think u should replace the rails. I think the rails are steel, not aluminum like the tower-- Thats why they use glue now. U also need a tram gauge for measuring the specs of the tower. The tolerance for these frames/ towers/ and structural parts are less than 3mm.
 

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I know other OEMs make the preferred repair methods readily available for their vehicles. Has anyone come across something similar for Alfa Romeo? I did find a good catalog on one of Mopar’s sites listing the various primers, waxes, and pre-finishes to use, but nothing regarding straightening vs welding.
Tell me specifically what info you need and I'll see if I can get it
 

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After getting into it a bit further yesterday I do have a cracked tower on the passenger side so I’ll be replacing that (have found a donor assembly) so my intent would be to cut the rail and apron further downstream and spot weld / glue the new pieces in. Still TBD on the driver side as the damage isn’t quite as extensive so a straightening may still be an option.
IMO a cracked shock tower means every suspension component on that side of the car needs close scrutiny.
There might be some tricks to position parts like the shock towers properly when they are installed. The factory has lots of special tools and robots.

FWIW: My tower braces came loose and that was not a happy condition. A good box end wrench followed by re-alignment at a competent shop fixed it but now the paint on the tower is chipped up from the brace shifting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
IMO a cracked shock tower means every suspension component on that side of the car needs close scrutiny.
There might be some tricks to position parts like the shock towers properly when they are installed. The factory has lots of special tools and robots.

That is one of my big concerns with this undertaking and part of the reason I am leaning towards a front rail + tower + apron assembly cut from another car. I believe that with a pre-assembled unit like that I have multiple reference points with which I can align the structure and ensure fit / orientation. My hope is that a combination of these parts + strut tower braces, bumper brackets, and cross-member will provide enough fixturing in each degree-of-freedom that the fit will go well. Excellent point though.

Tell me specifically what info you need and I'll see if I can get it
Do you have any specific part numbers of the compounds used for assembly? I'd be interested in OEM primer types, seam sealers, adhesives, etc. Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Make sure to use glue that are conforming to oem specs for thw tower. I still dont think u should replace the rails. I think the rails are steel, not aluminum like the tower-- Thats why they use glue now. U also need a tram gauge for measuring the specs of the tower. The tolerance for these frames/ towers/ and structural parts are less than 3mm.
ere's what I'm seeing. Before there is a lot of "total loss!" comments, I've forever been a cautious optimist and will give it a go! Pulling out a rail bend like this seems iffy to me, but perhaps you've had good experience with it? The crack in the tower can be seen in the snapshot and I think that replacing that + bent rail would be better addressed with a partial frame repair. Bare in mind, I'm not talking taking a straight seem and laying a bead of metal to weld a butt-joint. Instead I'm talking tearing down the donor piece to expose the factory sheet-metal pieces and then doing the inverse with the structure on my car. The result would be overlapping metal in an OEM method and then spot welding + gluing as would have been done in the factory albeit by hand instead of a mega-robot! ;)

114211

Kinda related, but not totally - Here's a link I stumbled upon which you guys may find interesting, if you haven't already seen it.

How the Alfa Romeo Giulia is Made
 

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ere's what I'm seeing. Before there is a lot of "total loss!" comments, I've forever been a cautious optimist and will give it a go! Pulling out a rail bend like this seems iffy to me, but perhaps you've had good experience with it? The crack in the tower can be seen in the snapshot and I think that replacing that + bent rail would be better addressed with a partial frame repair. Bare in mind, I'm not talking taking a straight seem and laying a bead of metal to weld a butt-joint. Instead I'm talking tearing down the donor piece to expose the factory sheet-metal pieces and then doing the inverse with the structure on my car. The result would be overlapping metal in an OEM method and then spot welding + gluing as would have been done in the factory albeit by hand instead of a mega-robot! ;)

View attachment 114211
Kinda related, but not totally - Here's a link I stumbled upon which you guys may find interesting, if you haven't already seen it.

How the Alfa Romeo Giulia is Made
Well, after seeing ur photo i think there ar 2 choices, each has its pros and cons.
1. Replace whole rail with strut tower and apron in one piece( from the donate part)
2. Repair rail and replace tower and apron in one piece.

The rail replacement would be a much harder job for non tradesman. as all x-members eng dash carpet has to b removed, and u must do a very good job in welding the rail onto the chasis( structurely sound welds) Plus the grind prime seal part of it. Btw, it will take some tools and patience to keep the whole new piece secure before measurements and welding. Not to mention the rail height without the eng, which on specs will b different than with the eng on the car. But those specs are available if u can get it. With and without the eng they have different specs. This by the time all said and done shohld be a 3-4 day job

While the repair of the rail sounds unprofessional and iffy, this is most auto collision repair techs do everyday. The advantage is that u dont have to break the oem weld sealer, disadvantage is that u should repair the rail with minimal heat, that way HSS wont turn into mild steel, but repairing HSS cold almost guarantee cracking, which then leads to the use of some heat. Unless u are the one repairing it, theres no way of telling how much heat was being used. This method also might involve removing the eng, cutting a " window" on the other side of the dent to repair the dent, and put it back and welding it back on. This is probably a 1-2 day job, plus the measuring and lining up of the rails would be easier, since if u pull the rails rhe right way, it should return to it normal state relatively easy.

To give u guys some perspective, i m a collision repair tech of 20yrs, and i have repair countless of rails through the yrs, and theres only 2 rails i have replace through the yrs. That goes to show how much more experience is needed for this replacement of rail. The rails are what we called spine of the car, and we dont change them unless absolutely needed.
 

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While it should be possible to get the rail back to close to the right shape, I expect that doing so will result in substantially compromised rail strength.

What about cutting the rail and using a butt weld in order to avoid welding on the outside of the passenger compartment? Heat treatment of the affected area could be tricky--since some steel alloys are only harden-able by the cold work involved in forming the piece. Even so, my guess is that it would not be worse than the loss of strength associated with straightening the rail.
 

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While it should be possible to get the rail back to close to the right shape, I expect that doing so will result in substantially compromised rail strength.

What about cutting the rail and using a butt weld in order to avoid welding on the outside of the passenger compartment? Heat treatment of the affected area could be tricky--since some steel alloys are only harden-able by the cold work involved in forming the piece. Even so, my guess is that it would not be worse than the loss of strength associated with straightening the rail.
All of these suggestions of various repair procedures does bring back memories of going to different training and having discussions with various industry experts. So its nice its kind of like a refreshing course for me!!
Lets examine a little bit on these procedures:

So, a bent and straightened HSS, which being repaired by using minimal heat, is still HSS, is it structurally weaken and by how much? Yes, its probably weakened, by how much i got no idea. But is it to a point where its 50% weaker? Probably not. The area which the rail collapse is becoz it s the crumple zone, which it is designed to collapse there at that specific point. So u dont want that part strong anyways.

Which now as we examine the replacement of the whole rail, which technically we have a whole rail of HSS, and wherever we plug welded it became mild steel becoz of the heat of welding, so technically and theoretically the whole rail can be tear off from the welds, but in reality since oem also welded the same number of welds so i say the tearing off from the welds is not going to happen. The hard part is having the same structural tensile strength on the welds. Oem applied the welds by compressing the metals together with sth like 100k lbs/ sq inch, ( i dont really rmb the number there but it is compressed) and running a electrical current through the metal to weld it. Some collision repair shops have that machine now, but its more for brand new parts, since the DS already stated its a used parts that is putting on the car, that means the rail has to b taken off by drilling the welds out, which means it is being welded back by conventional plug welds. Which in no way would be as strong as oem welds, but u can still do so, and u can drill more holes in between the welds andhave the welds closer, like an inch apart each weld to add a few more welds, thus the strength.

The replacement of partial rail, i must admit i almost forgot abt this as an option, and actually like this option better than replacing the whole rail, Since it does not have the oem welds tensile strength to replicate, and this is actually a lot easier to measure, weld and so on. We refer this method as spicing. The only problem here is finding the right area to spice, becoz u dont want to do it at the crumple zone,
becoz u want the rail to collapse at the right area thw next time in collision, some oem allow spicing, some dont, i doubt alfa recommends spicing. But personally i dont think it will cause problems if its done right. In terms of the type of weld, we do a plug and butt weld with insert, becoz butt weld is weak, so we put an insert with the same tensile strength inside the rail, plug weld both sides and butt weld the middle, the pro here is as the HSS being weld is changed to mild steel, but with the insert u double the mild steel, which matches the HSS tensile strength. Btw, the spice of the rail should be at an offset, so even though its easier than replacement of whole rail, it still requires some delicacy.
 

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Do you have any specific part numbers of the compounds used for assembly? I'd be interested in OEM primer types, seam sealers, adhesives, etc. Thank you!
Here are the sealer and adhesives part numbers and their recommended locations ..the file is large so I had to break it down to upload it ,,,

Ill look for the paint info tonight when I have more time
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Here are the sealer and adhesives part numbers and their recommended locations ..the file is large so I had to break it down to upload it ,,,

Ill look for the paint info tonight when I have more time

That. Is. Excellent. Exactly the data I'm looking for - much appreciated! May I ask what database that is? I've got a techauthority service manual, but nothing appears to have that level of detail.
 

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U dont have to use the exact glue or primer or whatever, u just have to use what can match and exceeds the oem procedures. Just imagine if they use some type of italian no man land sealer and theres no point in using the exact same stuff. So in these repairs including the structural and stuff u have to know whats right stuff to do and where its not necessary to follow. Oem have a bias tendency to not allow spicing of parts so they can weed out wreckers selling used parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
its from Dealer Connect.:)
I’m sorry for the dumb question, but as I look over the attachments I don’t quite see which adhesive type is required at each seam location. I suppose the safest default is to use structural adhesive everywhere, but I wasn’t sure if there was more detail that I’ve overlooked saying “structural here” or “seam sealer there”.

A follow-on question. Though I can inspect the various weld locations throughout the body, I was curious if you had available any repair guidance similar to the adhesive detail. For example, I’ve heard various OEMs require more repair spot welds than originally from the factory or they may require spot welds vs lug welds. Do you have any insight into this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
It’s been a bit and I hadn’t gotten a chance to wrench on the Giulia until this last weekend. At this point I’ve removed both front wheel suspension systems, auxiliary tubing, electrical interfaces, front brakes and lines, cabin air filter box, fuse box, etc. to clean up the engine bay and disconnect the engine/transmission from the body.

With a bit of back and forth shuffling (using only standard DIY tools) I was able to lower the powertrain and remove it from the car. This really helps me inspect the damage to the structure, mounts, and anything else I may have missed while the engine was still installed.

My ongoing and next steps are to fully document the parts-needed list and line up the chassis repair pieces. From what I see, it would appear the driver side frame could be straightened (need to confirm) with only a few apron pieces needing replacement or repair. The passenger side is a different story in my opinion and due to the amount of damage is a better candidate for replacement. With the bay cleaned up I can more easily see the factory body seams (aided by Crosshairs’ references) and can visualize the replacement body adaptation.

I’ve started another post for WTB parts in case you grease monkeys have any parts laying around your garage your looking to get rid of ;)

114840

114841

114842


More pictures to come…
 

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