Alfa Romeo Giulia Forum banner
1 - 20 of 102 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I took my 2.0T RWD to a Porsche Club of America event this past weekend at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch.

This is the track that got a lot of media attention because they are actively looking at becoming the longest/largest race track in the United States, and possibly the world. If you have never been to the track, it's worth going. It's about 45mins outside of Las Vegas, incredible facilities (they have real bathrooms!), food and hotels nearby, etc, etc.

PCA allows other marques to run their events, so you'll see 75% Porsches, with 20% Corvettes (natural enemies of every other marque), and the rest of the some random cars such as Civics / Integras, S2000s, etc. This event had two McLaren 650s (LT and a S), a Gallardo, and a Datsun 510 coupe. Yes, I put the 510 in the same category of "interesting/cool" as the supercars :D



My specific car is lowered on Eibach prokit springs, 18x8 wheels +35 with 5mm front spacers and 10mm rear spacers, and 245 wide tires all around. The tires are Federal 595 RS-S street tires, set to 38psi all around and didn't bother checking them for the entire event.

Temps were absolutely perfect for Southern Nevada, with the high around 80', sunny and cloud free.


Here's the video:

I have a standard in-car facing out the windshield, but I get bored of watching those, so I ended up cutting together two hot laps from two different sessions into one video. The exterior shot contains a full lap of my fastest that day, while the interior is my second fastest edited in. The exterior really shows how much the tires roll over (either due to tire pressure or suspension roll), while the interior was showing how little steering input you need to navigate tight corners.

At 2:05, you see the track owner's home. Yes, his house is about 1000' from the track, which also contains a heli-pad and an aircraft hanger (he uses the back straight to land/takeoff)... living the life that guy is.


So impressions. I've tracked a stock-weight 205whp S2000 on r-comps for years and this car feels very similar to how it handles, with one notable difference, the brakes are much much better, stock for stock. Sure the Giulia is carrying nearly 700lbs more, but the brakes are insanely good for combating fade. I am using the stock pads, stock fluid, stock base/ti brakes -- and I could get them to fade a little into some of the deeper corners, but they would come right back up by the next corner. Mind you, I do not get to the point of ABS engagement, so those with heavier feet be warned.

Otherwise, the steering and the way the Giulia turns in and approaches apexes is very similar to the S2000. Although the S2000 would carry more speed thru and out of the corner, the Giulia would get up to similar speeds at the end of the straights as the S2000. Basically, turn in was fantastic.

So, brakes work great, turn in is fantastic, but there's the last bit -- getting out of a corner. This is where the non-QVs die horrible horrible deaths and nearly ruins the experience.

As you are exiting a corner, you feed it throttle, while slowly unwinding the wheel, but, the stability/traction control prevent you from doing anything. It's limiting power and not allowing the car to accelerate out of the corner. All this excitement getting to the corner, all this excitement in the corner, then leaving the corner and you're reeled in by the intrusive systems that you cannot turn off.

You could point the wheel straight, towards the edge of the track, and the systems will allow SOME power, but now you're managing the car's safety systems vs just driving the car. You can actually see me straighten the wheel in some corners to do this exact thing.


At 1:16 in the video, there's a small rise, followed by a quick compression. At the rise, the car completely kills all power and doesn't allow you to accelerate out until after the compression. Not fun. The only way to combat that is to lift before the rise, coast for a second, then at the top of the rise, feed it power.


Beyond that, this was my first time on track with Federal RSRs. They have ONE hot lap in them before they become greasy and lose grip. But, for that one lap, they have good grip. Not nearly as fantastic as RS3s, RS4s, RE71Rs, or other properly sticky street tires.

I had some minor tire rub on the inner fenders, but it was likely due to the full suspension compression at the dip mentioned above. Otherwise, no fender rub or issues with the suspension.

My best laptime was a 2:48... which is generally meaningless if you never been to the track. So, here's some other times as comparison:
- 2:50 350Z
- 2:44 FRS/BRZ
- 2:39 S2000

If the traction control/stability control could be turned off, the car could do a 2:43-2:44. On r-comps and the ability to defeat tc, sub 2:30s is possible.


I also left it in auto. The gcu does a really good job of picking the right gear. I tried manual shifting, but the redline is so laughable low that I was bouncing off the rev limiter a few times without realizing. I've seen diesels with a higher redline. :D



Final conclusion. The 2.0T is a fanastic car, but the inability to turn off traction/stability control is almost worth spending the $30k for the QV. The power is more than enough for track use, brakes are more than enough to slow the car down. But, the terrible safety systems are maddening and make it somewhat frustrating for achieving really good lap times.
 

·
Registered
2020 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sport Ti AWD
Joined
·
7,478 Posts
I took my 2.0T RWD to a Porsche Club of America event this past weekend at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch.

This is the track that got a lot of media attention because they are actively looking at becoming the longest/largest race track in the United States, and possibly the world. If you have never been to the track, it's worth going. It's about 45mins outside of Las Vegas, incredible facilities (they have real bathrooms!), food and hotels nearby, etc, etc.

PCA allows other marques to run their events, so you'll see 75% Porsches, with 20% Corvettes (natural enemies of every other marque), and the rest of the some random cars such as Civics / Integras, S2000s, etc. This event had two McLaren 650s (LT and a S), a Gallardo, and a Datsun 510 coupe. Yes, I put the 510 in the same category of "interesting/cool" as the supercars :D

My specific car is lowered on Eibach prokit springs, 18x8 wheels +35 with 5mm front spacers and 10mm rear spacers, and 245 wide tires all around. The tires are Federal 595 RS-S street tires, set to 38psi all around and didn't bother checking them for the entire event.

Final conclusion. The 2.0T is a fanastic car, but the inability to turn off traction/stability control is almost worth spending the $30k for the QV. The power is more than enough for track use, brakes are more than enough to slow the car down. But, the terrible safety systems are maddening and make it somewhat frustrating for achieving really good lap times.
Sounds fun. Thanks for the post. No Paganis or Koenigseggs?

I like your wheels. What kind, and where did you get them?

Reason after reason to want an off switch.

If (when!) Alfa does a front-engine/rear-drive spider I hope it's described as "the next-generation S2000 Honda should have built", but with, of course, a healthy dose of Italian flair.

At 2:05, you see the track owner's home. Yes, his house is about 1000' from the track, which also contains a heli-pad and an aircraft hanger (he uses the back straight to land/takeoff)... living the life that guy is.
Power to him for doing it in a way we can enjoy while subsidizing his lifestyle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,344 Posts
Nice driving!

At modest and intermediate speeds the TC is really not intrusive, its when you start really pushing the car that it intervenes, at least that as been my experience driving FNM's Giulia the previous track event.

Someone needs desperately to figure out how to shut off the nannies to render the experience more enjoyable for the advanced drivers.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,086 Posts
cool video and write up, thanks for sharing!

Just one question - why is the S2k 9 seconds faster? Was it race slicks / driver or something? I wouldn't have thought it'd be anywhere near that (disclosure my friends used to own S2Ks / tracked them I would say like for like they wouldn't be 9 seconds quicker i'd expect them to be slower if anything? Might have missed something)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,086 Posts
Nice driving!

At modest and intermediate speeds the TC is really not intrusive, its when you start really pushing the car that it intervenes, at least that as been my experience driving FNM's Giulia the previous track event.

Someone needs desperately to figure out how to shut off the nannies to render the experience more enjoyable for the advanced drivers.....
I'm expecting an ECU to do this :D Agree though I don't think it's intrusive at least for my skill level, I wonder if the Q4 is 'very' different to the RWD, be an interesting comparison
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sounds fun. Thanks for the post. No Paganis or Koenigseggs?
We aren't SoCal! :D

I like your wheels. What kind, and where did you get them?
They are some knock offs, the only ones I could find that had similar offsets to the stock 18x8 wheels.
They are Katana KR30s, they come in silver or black.


If (when!) Alfa does a front-engine/rear-drive spider I hope it's described as "the next-generation S2000 Honda should have built", but with, of course, a healthy dose of Italian flair.
I'd be curious what an Italian designed S2000 would look like -- the S2000 isn't an ugly car, but if there's one thing the Italians know how to do, it's designing really good looking cars.

John Morris (the track owner) achieved some internet fame for this:

He's certainly living the dream.
He was flying his personal helicopter over the track that day, showing people the layout while we were running. I'm ok with admitting being jealous of him, he's a down to earth guy, building a playground for him and his friends.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
At modest and intermediate speeds the TC is really not intrusive, its when you start really pushing the car that it intervenes, at least that as been my experience driving FNM's Giulia the previous track event.
Agreed.

For the corners where it would open up gradually, the system didn't involve itself. But tighter corners where you wanted to get the car to rotate using the throttle, and it was far more involved.

Someone needs desperately to figure out how to shut off the nannies to render the experience more enjoyable for the advanced drivers.....
So. Much. This.

My track day was good fun, but after two sessions of struggling with the traction control intervention, I was nearly done. Then a friend let me take his GTR out for a session. I was happy as a clam afterwards.


Do you have the performance package with the limited slip differential?
I don't. This is a very very basic 2.0T. I'm sure the LSD equipped cars would rotate a little better, but not sure if the TC is as intrusive in those cars as it is in mine.


Just one question - why is the S2k 9 seconds faster? Was it race slicks / driver or something? I wouldn't have thought it'd be anywhere near that (disclosure my friends used to own S2Ks / tracked them I would say like for like they wouldn't be 9 seconds quicker i'd expect them to be slower if anything? Might have missed something)
Curb weight, TC, and tires.

My S2000 was weighed at 2850lbs, dynoed at 205whp. 13.90lbs/hp.
My Giulia was weighed at 3500lbs (+/- 20lbs), haven't dynoed, but with 15% drivetrain loss, it's probably at 240whp. 14.5lbs/hp.

So, from a purely hp to weight ratio, the S2000 is better.

The gap would be dramatically reduced if I had similar tires on the Giulia and could defeat TC -- I'd say it'd be closer to 2-3s difference.
 

·
Registered
2020 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sport Ti AWD
Joined
·
7,478 Posts
We aren't SoCal! :D
LOL

They are some knock offs, the only ones I could find that had similar offsets to the stock 18x8 wheels.
They are Katana KR30s, they come in silver or black.
I'll look them up. I'm really hoping for an exact fit.

I'd be curious what an Italian designed S2000 would look like -- the S2000 isn't an ugly car, but if there's one thing the Italians know how to do, it's designing really good looking cars.
Well, there's the "Fiata" twins to provide some potential guidance.

John Morris (the track owner) achieved some internet fame for this:

He's certainly living the dream.
He was flying his personal helicopter over the track that day, showing people the layout while we were running. I'm ok with admitting being jealous of him, he's a down to earth guy, building a playground for him and his friends.
Reminds me of when I went to Bondurant and Bob was buzzing around in his chopper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
437 Posts
Let me also say I love to see threads like this. Great work man, and thank you for sharing your experience.

It's one thing to read about how the Giulia handles in a magazine, it's another thing to feel it first hand.

Having now taken my Giulia to the track as well it's fun to relate my experience to yours and really understand the difference and learn more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
135 Posts
I came from a supercharged S2000 and an Evo and have the same impression. I was going to post an in-depth impression at the 3500 mile point in similar fashion but you beat me to the punch! I haven't taken the car on track yet but have auto-crossed and taken it to Tail of the Dragon for 4 days of hard mountain driving. A TC defeat is a must (if you're reading tuners).

I wanted to invest in an 18" track tire setup. I'm used to throwing 9" wide wheels on everything that going with anything smaller seems weird lol. I was thinking 8.5 w/ 255 Potenza RE-71R's. Do you feel the 245's are sufficient? The stock 225 Pirelli all seasons get sloppy once they're hot. Can only imagine how the car is with a proper set of rubber.

Great post!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I wanted to invest in an 18" track tire setup. I'm used to throwing 9" wide wheels on everything that going with anything smaller seems weird lol. I was thinking 8.5 w/ 255 Potenza RE-71R's. Do you feel the 245's are sufficient? The stock 225 Pirelli all seasons get sloppy once they're hot. Can only imagine how the car is with a proper set of rubber.
Honestly, until we can get a TC defeat device or method, it's going to be hard to determine what tire widths will be most beneficial for the 2.0T cars. I didn't find any issue with lateral grip or braking performance with the 245s, but then again, I couldn't get the car to step out where a wider tire might be better.

With that, I was able to put the car virtually wherever I wanted it on track when the tires weren't greasy/overheated. Once they got greasy, then it was just trying to manage the tires and make sure I didn't put the car into the dirt.

A wider tire will likely allow for more flying laps, due to more tire being able to handle the heat better, but at the risk of fitment issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
312 Posts
I think if you opted to use the manual shift as opposed to automatic you would certainly be able to exit the turn more aggressively. From my experience you are probably one to two gears too high when driving out.. not sure how TC was such a hindrance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think if you opted to use the manual shift as opposed to automatic you would certainly be able to exit the turn more aggressively. From my experience you are probably one to two gears too high when driving out.. not sure how TC was such a hindrance.
I tried both, manual and auto modes - made no difference in corner exit. Auto seemed to always have me in the middle of the powerband, surprisingly.
 

·
Registered
2020 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sport Ti AWD
Joined
·
7,478 Posts
I think if you opted to use the manual shift as opposed to automatic you would certainly be able to exit the turn more aggressively. From my experience you are probably one to two gears too high when driving out.. not sure how TC was such a hindrance.
I tried both, manual and auto modes - made no difference in corner exit. Auto seemed to always have me in the middle of the powerband, surprisingly.
What about corner entry? Did the transmission downshift appropriately?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,344 Posts
I think if you opted to use the manual shift as opposed to automatic you would certainly be able to exit the turn more aggressively. From my experience you are probably one to two gears too high when driving out.. not sure how TC was such a hindrance.
I am pretty sure as the computer determines a certain slip angle, it automatically shuts power off to the wheels. It won't matter if in manual or automatic mode......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
What about corner entry? Did the transmission downshift appropriately?
As best as I could tell. The few times I checked, the gearbox seemed to be downshifting appropriately.

The brakes were great, but the way the gearbox managed shifts was the most surprising since my experience with automatics on track is they are atrocious.


People mentioned that the car could use a bit more camber, with my car being lowered, it seemed to solve some of the camber issues -- the next thing the car needs is a TC defeat device/method. Hopefully it doesn't involve buying a whole new ECU.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,086 Posts
being a bit lazy here but is anyone working on an ECU which has a feature to disable TC yet?
 
1 - 20 of 102 Posts
Top